How many hits should it take to drop a monster?

[Dykstrav]

I've been playing 4E since the day it came out, and I've felt that some monsters have too many hit points that whole time. Some combats drag out endlessly, with the characters slugging it out with the brutes and soldiers long after the artillery, controllers, or the elite have perished. Sometimes these combats drag on for several rounds after it's obvious that the characters won. It's not satisfying or dramatic, so I've been trying out different methods of dealing with monster hit points.

My quick-and-dirty solution has been to just give some monsters 75% of their normal hit points, sometimes even half. It's quick and easy and usually makes the monsters die two or three rounds faster.

 

[Mark]

The solution is simple, gentlemen.

We should ask Mister Owl.

The world may never know . . .

 

[Plane Sailing]

Pretty sure this is intended as a 4e thread, so I'm moving it over here.

Cheers

 

[Bagpuss]

Isn't it meant to be about 4 hits for a normal creature, as minions take one, and are 1/4 the XP of a standard XP.

 

[msherman]

I've been playing 4E since the day it came out, and I've felt that some monsters have too many hit points that whole time. Some combats drag out endlessly, with the characters slugging it out with the brutes and soldiers long after the artillery, controllers, or the elite have perished. Sometimes these combats drag on for several rounds after it's obvious that the characters won. It's not satisfying or dramatic, so I've been trying out different methods of dealing with monster hit points.

I think the entire HP system is balanced around Intimidate. Basically, in 4e, monsters should be running away bloodied a lot more than they used to.

 

[Klaus]

Isn't it meant to be about 4 hits for a normal creature, as minions take one, and are 1/4 the XP of a standard XP.

That's a neat thinking. Let's extrapolate, assuming a PC has a 50% chance of hitting a same-level monster.

Minion - 1 hit (2 attacks).
Regular - 4 hits (8 attacks).
Elite - 8 hits (16 attacks).
Solo - 16 hits (32 attacks).

Based on a 5-PC party, this means a balanced (1 regular per PC, same level) combat should take about 6 rounds...

 

[Dykstrav]

I think the entire HP system is balanced around Intimidate. Basically, in 4e, monsters should be running away bloodied a lot more than they used to.

When I DM, I do play monsters according to their motivations... Only the most fanatical or stupid creatures battle to the death. Even moderately intelligent creatures only enter combat when they've taken every possible means of gaining an advantage.

I've never had a player try Intimidate, although I've suggested it. In other games, I've done Intimidate, had DMs not believe me about how Intimidate works, then subsequently house rule it when we pull out the PHB. I'd love to do it, but I haven't found a group that doesn't want to murder everything they come across.

 

[Storminator]

When I DM, I do play monsters according to their motivations... Only the most fanatical or stupid creatures battle to the death. Even moderately intelligent creatures only enter combat when they've taken every possible means of gaining an advantage.

I've never had a player try Intimidate, although I've suggested it. In other games, I've done Intimidate, had DMs not believe me about how Intimidate works, then subsequently house rule it when we pull out the PHB. I'd love to do it, but I haven't found a group that doesn't want to murder everything they come across.

Doesn't a hostile enemy get a +10 Will Defense? That seems to reduce the viability of Intimidate in combat to a much more reasonable efficacy.

PS

 

[Lord Zardoz]

I'm tweaking my 1/2 hp +1/2 level damage template to run some faster games but I don't want to rocket through things so I'm trying to figure out how many hits it should take to drop a monster.

Not a bad question, but poorly worded. Minions for example are dropped in 1 hit, but if they have some high Def scores, they can stick around a while. Soldiers should be roughly as durable as Brutes, both should be better then Lukrers and Skirmishers. Also, eating some shots from a Rogues sneak attack is different then getting nailed by a Wizards magic missile. or AoE attacks. I would use the Defender and Leader classes as a base line.

A better question:
How many attack rolls from a Defender / Leader should it take to drop a level appropriate monster of a given role?

For a game that you want to have go fast, I suggest the following:

Soldier / Brute: 5 attack rolls or 3 hits
Lurker / Skirmisher / Controller: 3 Attack rolls / 2 hits
Elite Brute/Soldier: 10 attack rolls / 5 hits
Elite Lurkers / Skirmisher / Controller: 8 attack rolls / 4 hits

Solo Soldier / Brute: 20 Attack Rolls / 11 hits
Solo Lurker / Skirmisher / Controller: 16 Attack Rolls / 9 hits

Assuming a party of 4 PC's, that gives you solos that last about 4 or 5 rounds, Elites that can stand up for about 3 rounds of focused punishment. Your Solders and Brutes can square off against 1 PC each and stick around for a few rounds, but get dropped if they are dog piled. Your skirmishers can take a few shots, but need to avoid a toe to toe fight.

In general, if you want to avoid a grindy fight, you just need to make sure the following happen:
- Use monsters with AC / Def scores low enough to let most encounter and daily powers hit.
- Use enough monsters that each player gets a chance to use the at wills a few times, and two Encounter / Daily powers.
- Make sure the monsters get a chance to do their special crap.

I have not really encountered any combats that felt like what I would call a grind myself, though I have been staying very close to the reccomended XP value of a given fight, and I have only played up to level 5 in 4th edition at the moment (I have a somewhat unreliable gaming group that gets hit with long periods of non gaming).

END COMMUNICATION

 

[Herschel]

Ah one, ah two, ah three *CRUNCH*. The answer is three.