how many of powerful beings and/or high-level characters do you think is appropriate in a typical fantasy world?

I'm stating basic lore because it's context in a thread not explicitly about Tolkein. This is about settings in general.

My point is that your example of what is typical is one of the least typical settings of all time and one of the ones that is most removed from typical fantasy literature in how it is described in its game books.

The fact there are essays on it means there are disagreements on interpretation.

Not so much among experts in Tolkien lore. The author is calling out people for assuming that perforce if the character in the story is the most powerful one in the setting that they must be the most powerful possible in D&D. This isn't true. The author of the essay argues quite correctly that if much of what is possible in high level D&D was possible in the setting that much of the story wouldn't make sense, and rather we should judge the power of a character in a story based on what they actually can do.

I mean, you're using 5D and 8HD+8 notation, which is from a version of d&d that stopped being published 25 years ago and is now the province of OSR while I use the CR notation that has been used since 3e but has itself been revised repeatedly.

Yes, but at the time of the essay that wasn't true, and the essays criticism still stands. More importantly, 40 years ago when the essay was written, D&D was closer to its roots in fantasy literature than it is now. D&D has evolved in its assumptions away from the assumption that it was simulating the worlds of fantasy literature and become increasingly self-referential. Leaving aside that the D&D wizard is as a historical fact originally inspired by Gandalf and is a very poor take on Gandalf, and that as an historical fact the D&D ranger was originally inspired by Aragorn and is itself a very poor take on Aragorn, and the D&D Balor was originally inspired by the Balrog, as time has past, D&D has become more and more unhitched from its roots in fantasy literature and settings and become a history unto itself where the current version of D&D is based on nothing more than D&D.

An 8D+8 1e Balor is a CR15 creature in 3e and CR19 in 5e.

Which doesn't prove the point you think it does. It just proves that D&D is increasingly poorly suited for simulating the world of Tolkien using the stand-ins as direct translations. The modern Balor is less and less like the Balrog that inspired it. The modern Ranger is less and less like the fiction that inspired it. I mean the translation to a game was never very accurate to begin with, but it's not even something being attempted right now.

And this is generally true of any fantasy fiction that isn't itself novelized D&D (and novelized D&D itself has relatively low verisimilitude with the game as played).

But the thing is that Faerun isn't even typical for D&D settings, and is itself by being influential, particular is a big part of the history of D&D as a game system and how power inflation and creep became more and more written into the rules. It's a big part of the reason that Balors (originally the name of one Type XI demon, where the types were non-hierarchical) went from being the equivalent of CR 8 in 1e AD&D to CR 15 and eventually CR 19 while all the numbers associated with those things like hit points kept increasing. It's the reason you needed more Type XI demons and the Types sort of went away and became a hierarchy of power rather than a recording of some of the diverse types of demons that existed in no hierarchical order.

It's hard to pick out what a "typical" fantasy setting would be, but there is a vast vast difference between what is upper end power in a world like Middle Earth or Tortall and what is upper in power in a world like Midkemia (inspired by Middle Earth but definitely not Middle EArth) or "Randland" and a typical D&D setting and Faerun. Characters in Faerun are about twice the level normal for characters in my homebrew or play and world-shaking magic far rarer and less commonplace on my world than Faerun - which may explain why world-shattering cataclysms on my world are separated by millennia and not decades.
 

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In 3e '0-level" doesn't exist, everyone is at least a level 1 Commoner.

That was true by 3.5e but in 3.0e there were rules for 0th level characters. It would be fairer to say most adults were assumed to be at least 1st level commoners.

Iirc, most small thorpes of under 100 people had a 7th level commoner.

Who except in basic life skills and resistance to energy drain was more or less equivalent to a 2nd or 3rd level PC classed character, especially if you weren't being super generous with ability score arrays and sticking to something close to 11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10 modified by age and the like.
 

I'm not sure. but what I want to discuss is, in a world like Toril, like in the 3R era where spellcasters are almost omnipotent, how many powerful beings and high level characters are appropriate?
there are also a lot of levels among these powerful beings and high-level characters, so, to what extent is it related to the total population?
or should the number of these powerful beings be more arbitrary since their power is not actually based on the size of territory and population like the rulers on Earth.?

3e had rules for this. You can dislike them, most people did, but it provides a baseline point for you to make your own version.

Random community builder
d% Town Size Population+ GP Limit Level Modifier
01-10 Thorp 20-80 40gp -3
11-30 Hamlet 81-400 100gp -2
31-50 Village 401-900 200gp -1
51-70 Small town 901-2,000 800gp 0
71-85 Large town 2,001-5,000 3,000gp +3
86-95 Small city 5,001—12,000 15,000gp +6 (roll 2x)
96-99 Large city 12,001—25,000 40,000gp +9 (roll 3x)
100 Metropolis 25,001 or more 100,000gp +12 (roll 4x)

+Adult population. Depending on the dominant race of the community, the number of nonadults will range from 10% to 40% of this figure.

Nothing that costs more than a community's Gp limit.

HIGHEST-LEVEL LOCALS
A result of 0 or lower for character level means that no characters of that kind can be found in the community. The maximum level for any class is 20th.

lower levels: There are twice as many that are 2 levels lower. Repeat down to 1st level. If you stop at 2nd level, make 1.5x as many 1st level. Larger communities can have multiple high level characters of each class, repeat for each.
E.g. 1x 10th, 2x 8th, 4x 6th, 8x 4th, 16x 2nd, 24x 1st.

All remaining adults are 1st level commoners.

ClassCharacter Level
Adept1d6 + community modifier
Aristocrat1d4 + community modifier
Barbarian*1d4 + community modifier
Bard1d6 + community modifier
Cleric1d6 + community modifier
Commoner4d4 + community modifier
Druid1d6 + community modifier
Expert3d4 + community modifier
Fighter1d8 + community modifier
Monk*1d4 + community modifier
Paladin1d3 + community modifier
Ranger1d3 + community modifier
Rogue1d8 + community modifier
Sorcerer1d4 + community modifier
Warrior2d4 + community modifier
Wizard1d4 + community modifier
** Where these classes are more common, level is 1d8 + modifier


This gives you several "dials" to get the populations you like.
  • adjust the maximum level of classes. Use d2/d3/d4 instead of d3/d4/d6
  • adjust the community modifiers - maybe the big cities are just +1/+2/+3 and only the Metropolis gets 2 rolls
  • change how lower levels are calculated - maybe 1.5x as many at 2 levels lower. Or x2 that are 3 levels lower.

I think simply having this in the DMG helped DMs clarify how they want their world to work.
 

@kigmatzomat I think that is a much more functional way to look at the problem. The question isn't really "what's typical in fiction", but what's typical in the campaign that I'm running. Establishing demographics is IMO one of the most important things a DM can do when preparing a campaign because it informs your sandbox play and gives you some standard for what newly invented content ought to conform to. What level is the bartender? What does your demographics say is likely?

Typically, I'm asking questions like: "What percentage of the population are members of each class?" How common are characters of a particular level and a particular class? At what age does a person typically obtain a higher level?

Typically, in my game I think about characters in terms of tiers, and typically this is how I tier.

1st-3rd level: "Realistic" tier. Lots of characters exist at these levels with an almost even distribution - there are almost as many 3rd level characters out there as 1st level characters. Most NPCs can expect to obtain about 3rd level if they live long enough, but in most cases the levels will be in mundane classes: commoner, expert, brute, scholar, warrior, explorer, plus a smattering of levels in fighter or rogue if the character spent part of their life in risky situations or receiving highly skilled training. What is typical is that higher leveled characters are older. You'd rarely find a character who was 3rd level who was less than 40 years old because NPCs typically aren't adventuring but acquiring XP slowly through mundane life experiences. Likewise, the feats and skills acquired by typical NPCs will be focused on mundane survival and not facing off against monsters in dark places. They'll be good at farming, crafts, and social skills. And the ability scores of these characters are typically quite ordinary - 11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10 - slightly modified depending on the characters profession. A stevedore might have 16 STR or a scholar might have 16 INT, but if so then they'll probably have no higher than 10 in any other ability. Characters in this tier tend to treat 10 as a fairly high ability score, and 12 as extraordinary talent.
4th-6th level: "Heroic" tier. These characters represent more or less the peak of realistic human ability. Protagonists in "realistic" or "gritty" movies tend to be about this level. They are uncommon and each step up is rare. For commoners there are probably 1/3rd many characters of each level as the proceeding one. For PC classes there are maybe as few as 1/6th as many characters of each level up as the next (especially if the region isn't known for producing members of that class). For example, in an urban area, a group of 1000 fighters you might expect only 1 6th level fighters, 9 5th level fighters, 52 4th level fighters, but 313 3rd level fighters 313 2nd level fighters, and 313 1st level fighters. Notice how quickly things drop off. If fighters represent like 3% of the population, then in a city of around 33,000 people there is like 1 6th level fighter. Compare that demographics to the 3e rules you posted where on average in a city of that size there would be like 456 1st, 228 3rd, 144 5th, 72 7th, 36 9th, 18 11th, 9 13th, 5 15th, 3 17th, and 1 19th level fighter. Compared to the setting you think is default, a 7th level character is extraordinarily important, but ordinary competency is actually on average higher in my demographics. The default city protects itself with a few high-level heroes each of which is a demigod in power. My city protects itself with a competent army, each member of which would be out of his depth (put intended) in a typical dungeon. In the default city, it's really hard to imagine what could possibly threaten the city. An army of high challenge monsters would be required. My city could conceivably defend itself against something CR 10 or CR 12 at considerable loss of life, but anything more than that is a stretch. Yet, monsters have similar demographics. In the default city, it's hard to imagine what a group of 1st level characters could do that wouldn't already have been done by someone more competent at the task. "Treasure to be found here" would have long ago assembled a party of tomb raiders and heroes decades ago. In my city, it's easy to see why nearby sources of danger would be generally avoided. Particularly when you consider that typical 6th level NPCs are past their adventuring prime and might be built on something like a 15,13,12,11,10,9 ability score array and really do have other things that they can be doing, like being critical leaders in their community. And also, because that's the demographics I have, it's unlikely the shop keeper is a 10th level fighter to punish the PCs in the meta because I don't like that they are stealing. The shop keeper is probably a competent 3rd level expert and the larger society does have mechanisms to deal with high level threats, but my meta isn't determined by out of fiction considerations like "I want you stealing from the monsters and not the shop keeper."
7th-11th level: "Super-heroic tier": This is the level of less gritty action-adventure movies to the level of lower tier superheroes. Typically, this level represents the most powerful characters in a nation or small region. These are the elite movers and shakers of society. At the upper limits of this tier, there are only a few of these per 100,000 individuals.
12th-16th level: "Global Influencer": There are a few of these per million mortals. This is the level of the most powerful mortal individuals on the planet. These are the leaders of cults and religious sects, the mightiest spellcasters, the greatest military leaders, the most powerful crime bosses, etc. No commoners exist at this level, because this level you don't obtain just by living a normal life. Anyone forced by life circumstances to level up like this would not be gaining the experience of a commoner.
17th-20th level: "Veritable demigod": There isn't a guarantee that a living example of a character of a particular class exists at this level at any given time and the few that do exist are typically living legends. Only a few characters of this level arise per culture per century. Many of the existing ones are characters who managed to extend their life in some fashion. Characters of this level rarely face any challenges in the mortal world and would probably have to adventure outside of the mortal realm to find challenges suitable to their talents.

A lot of fantasy novels have similar tiering IMO, although in some cases the narrative is focused on that protagonist or protagonists who are breaking the curve. For example, the D&D inspired early Raymond Faust novels are probably tiered as above but Pug and Tomas are breaking the curve and rapidly hit "veritable demigod" status. Tolkien arguably tiers at about this level or below, where you can argue for historic characters like Luthien, Fingolfin, Hurin, and Eärendil of the legendary past being in that 17th-20th level range, but by the time of the late Third Age even characters like Gollum, Gandalf and Aragorn are topping out in the 7th or 8th level range and the big baddies aren't even in the 17th-20th level range (Sauron without his ring, for example). Glorfindel and Galadriel might be topping out in the range of 10th or 11th level as the highest-level characters in middle earth that aren't Sauron. Tamora Pierce's "Tortall" universe has I think similar tiering. Robert Howard's "Conan" has I think similar tiering.

I can't even recognize how something like Faerun works. It's much closer to a DC Superheroes setting, and a I really feel that it's a setting that doesn't closely examine the implications of the setting. Certainly you can't explain NPCs levelling up through any mechanism remotely similar to how PCs level up, and yet somehow NPCs seem to exceed PCs in level. Shouldn't the PC's be doing whatever the NPCs do since it seems easier and less dangerous, and then go on adventures once the threat is mitigated?
 

I think we over think this. Just don't have any around where the players go if you don't want. Ime, DMs think about this a lot, and players rarely do.
 

I think we over think this. Just don't have any around where the players go if you don't want. Ime, DMs think about this a lot, and players rarely do.

Because players don't have to improvise content on the fly. If you are a GM you are frequently improvising content on the fly, and there are two standards for doing that - invent what you think is narratively useful at the moment or invent what you think is appropriate for the setting. If you do the first, then the newly invented content is invariably exactly what provides a useful challenge or steers the party back on the narrative path the GM prefers because that's how your unchecked biases will steer you. But if you want to avoid that, you have to have given some thought to demographics and be able to pull a relatively "normal" character out of your hat. And what is "normal" is based on demographics of some sort.
 

Because players don't have to improvise content on the fly. If you are a GM you are frequently improvising content on the fly, and there are two standards for doing that - invent what you think is narratively useful at the moment or invent what you think is appropriate for the setting. If you do the first, then the newly invented content is invariably exactly what provides a useful challenge or steers the party back on the narrative path the GM prefers because that's how your unchecked biases will steer you. But if you want to avoid that, you have to have given some thought to demographics and be able to pull a relatively "normal" character out of your hat. And what is "normal" is based on demographics of some sort.
This black and white, yes no, thinking is not something I agree with. I didn't agree that I can't do the latter without spending days figuring out demographics. I don't have to think about it to improvise whatever I want. Like I said, we likely won't agree.
 

A lot of fantasy novels have similar tiering IMO, although in some cases the narrative is focused on that protagonist or protagonists who are breaking the curve.
Though a lot of novels as do the "demi god main character vs the zero level world", and this is the default for most TV shows and movies. Though this is a much bigger problem with any action adventure faction.
I can't even recognize how something like Faerun works. It's much closer to a DC Superheroes setting, and a I really feel that it's a setting that doesn't closely examine the implications of the setting. Certainly you can't explain NPCs levelling up through any mechanism remotely similar to how PCs level up, and yet somehow NPCs seem to exceed PCs in level. Shouldn't the PC's be doing whatever the NPCs do since it seems easier and less dangerous, and then go on adventures once the threat is mitigated?
It is fair to say that most of the FR writers, authors, editors and such don't know much about the setting at all....and plenty also don't care. And many don't have the skill to world build. Though there are a couple that add to the Realmslore and make the setting what it is.

Of course, you won't find that in many books...even more so anything new by WotC.

The Realms are very....artificial.....with the gods and other beings of power creating and controlling the world on a large scale. And by powerful mortals on a more medium level and small level.
 

I think we over think this. Just don't have any around where the players go if you don't want. Ime, DMs think about this a lot, and players rarely do.
My group definitely does.

  • Are there actual clerics here or non-caster priests? Does our cleric out rank them?
  • Who could we pay for divinations/raise dead/potions?
  • Are there people who would pay us for divinations/raise dead?
  • Where could our wizard get new spells?
  • Are there other wizards who would want to buy a copy of that neat spell our wizard got last level?
  • Where could we find a sage or bard who knows something about that weird thing we found last week?
  • Who would buy exotic materials, old books, jewelry or oddball scrolls we'll never use?
  • Who are the high society types the bard should schmooze?
  • Where is the nearest druid circle? Do they know where any fey gates are?

For me, going through the exercise of deciding what was "reasonable" for various communities helps me make quick decisions better. We all have biases and making conscious decisions in advance tend to mitigate those biases. One GM may go over the top and wind up with every hamlet having a 6th level priest while another may knee-jerk say no to things and wind up with a Metropolis without a 2nd level wizard.
 

My group definitely does.

  • Are there actual clerics here or non-caster priests? Does our cleric out rank them?
  • Who could we pay for divinations/raise dead/potions?
  • Are there people who would pay us for divinations/raise dead?
  • Where could our wizard get new spells?
  • Are there other wizards who would want to buy a copy of that neat spell our wizard got last level?
  • Where could we find a sage or bard who knows something about that weird thing we found last week?
  • Who would buy exotic materials, old books, jewelry or oddball scrolls we'll never use?
  • Who are the high society types the bard should schmooze?
  • Where is the nearest druid circle? Do they know where any fey gates are?

For me, going through the exercise of deciding what was "reasonable" for various communities helps me make quick decisions better. We all have biases and making conscious decisions in advance tend to mitigate those biases. One GM may go over the top and wind up with every hamlet having a 6th level priest while another may knee-jerk say no to things and wind up with a Metropolis without a 2nd level wizard.
I'm not sure why we'd have to think about how many of those are on the planet to answer the questions. But I get most here won't agree with me, and I've made my point, so I'll bow out.
 

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