How many people can be in a 5'X5' square?

[EOL]

My contention would be that your contention doesn't hold much water. You need to read the DMG more closely. Page 70, Moving Around in Squares.

I said, doesn't say much at all two paragraphs with zero actual mechanics (like losing all saves) does not seem like much, which is what I was trying to say.

 

[kreynolds]

I said, doesn't say much at all two paragraphs with zero actual mechanics (like losing all saves) does not seem like much, which is what I was trying to say.

Did I challenge what you said? Nope. Did I say you said something other than what you said? Nope. Did I misquote you? Nope. Just making sure we're clear here.

Hey, if you think that sharing a square with a comrade in a 5-foot wide corridor in the middle of combat as a fireball comes roaring at your face is still a situation in which you could duck out of the way even though it's not your turn...well...I don't think I need to say anything more on that.

 

[IanB]

I don't think I need to say anything more on that.

I think you do. I notice that often you berate people on the board for posting what you consider 'house rules.' How is your contention about saves in this instance any different? All page 70 says is that characters can't fight effectively when sharing a square. There is a pretty big jump from that to "is categorically denied Reflex saves."

 

[kreynolds]

I think you do.

Of course you do.

I notice that often you berate people on the board for posting what you consider 'house rules.'

I never said it was a rule. Not once.

How is your contention about saves in this instance any different?

Because you have nowhere to move. Same deal if you're in a dragon's mouth and he breathes...where the hell are going? Nowhere. You're not evading that.

All page 70 says is that characters can't fight effectively when sharing a square.

Gee. I wonder why it says that. Hmmm. Maybe because there's not enough room!? Nah. That couldn't be it.

There is a pretty big jump from that to "is categorically denied Reflex saves."

That's not a big jump at all. What is a big jump, however, is your big ol' assumption that I was categorically denying saving throws when you share a square. If you have room to move, you save and evade like normal. I don't have a problem with that. If you don't have room to move, you don't get a reflex save. If you don't get a reflex save, you don't get evasion or improved evasion.

Read Evasion and Improved Evasion on page 76 of the DMG. It states quite plainly that if you don't have room to move, you don't get a reflex save, thus neither of these abilities works. The DMG never states the exact mechanics of when you do or don't have room to move, except when crawling through a 2 1/2 foot wide tunnell. They leave the rest of it up to you.

 

[ouini]

Another case of GM's call

Since there is no explicit rule on the subject, I'd say you're in the enviable position of making a ruling on a per-case basis, going with what makes the most sense to you.

If I had a couple medium characters in a 5x5 space in a 5' wide hallway, and the adjacent squares/hexes were occupied, I'd disallow a reflex save or make it very difficult for many effects. Or maybe I'd even allow the person who made the better save succeed, having used the other as cover.

I don't think anyone, not even forum users with a petty authoritarian attitude, would be able to question your ruling with any weight or certainty.

First rule: Make the game fun.

 

[Macbrea]

To rule that two people in the same square lose their reflex save says all characters grappling loss their reflex save. As to the maximum number of medium sized creatures that are allowed to occupy one 5x5x5 square?

This becomes a DMs ruling. According to the rules:

4 Medium sized creatures may grapple 1 Medium sized creature in one square.
3 more may grapple each of those 4 medium sized creatures in that same square.
3 more may grapple each of those 12 medium sized creatures in that same square.
ect.

So, in theory... By the rules an infinite number of people may fit in one 5x5x5 square. Now, that is absolutely silly and alittle beyond the judgement of what the rules intended. A DM sometimes has to make judgement calls which are not covered by the rules.

 

[kreynolds]

To rule that two people in the same square lose their reflex save says all characters grappling loss their reflex save.

No it doesn't. It depends on how you handle the situation. If you have room to move, who's to say that one of the grapplers doesn't drag the other one out of the way to save his own butt as well? Or, who's to say that the grapplers don't give up on the grapple to dodge out of the way? I actually allow the grapplers to make a choice:

1) If all grapplers give up on the grapple, I allow the reflex save, but if they want to continue grappling the next round, they have to start all over again.
2) If you do not want to give up on the grapple, you make another grapple check. If you win, you keep your opponent in your space and deny him, and you, your reflex saves. Conversely, you can use the same tactic to drag your opponent with you, thus you both get your saves, even if your opponent was unwilling.

YMMW.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Sharing a 5 by 5 foot square with another is not the same as standing in a 2,5 foot corridor: The corridor confines you to 2,5 feet with all the way, but if you and a friend walk close to one another in a 5 foot corridor, the confinement's only about 2 feet long. behind your friend, and in front of him, you have 5 foot of width again. Also, the two don't have to walk side by side, but one could be a foot or two further along the corridor, and still the two are in the same square. And I think they could well manage to make their own attempt to evade any harm without getting in each other's way to much. They'll maybe get a penalty, but it isn't impossible to move.

 

[kreynolds]

Sharing a 5 by 5 foot square with another is not the same as standing in a 2,5 foot corridor: The corridor confines you to 2,5 feet with all the way, but if you and a friend walk close to one another in a 5 foot corridor, the confinement's only about 2 feet long. behind your friend, and in front of him, you have 5 foot of width again. Also, the two don't have to walk side by side, but one could be a foot or two further along the corridor, and still the two are in the same square. And I think they could well manage to make their own attempt to evade any harm without getting in each other's way to much. They'll maybe get a penalty, but it isn't impossible to move.

You also have to use some sort of logic. If you're in a corridor that's 5-feet wide and 10-feet high, and a fireball goes off at your feet, seriously, where are you gonna go? Left? Nope, fireball goes there. Right? Nope, fireball goes there too. Back? Again, that fireball problem. Forward. Again, that fireball problem. Up? Same thing. Down? Same thing. Quite literally, the are you are in is completely filled by the fireball, so there really isn't anywhere to go.

When you have more room, it's not a big deal, even if you're standing in the middle of a massive arena and a fireball goes off. There's nothing to duck behind. There's nothing to dive into. There's technically no way to avoid the fireball, but you have room to get around, and that's all I require.

This is all circumstantial, so it's no wonder that there aren't any hard and fast rules to go by.

 

[Zenon]

A DM sometimes has to make judgement calls which are not covered by the rules.

Oh, man. Don't say that on these boards. The Rule-Robot DM's will have a breakdown!

(This post was humor. Thank you for playing.)