How many people can be in a 5'X5' square?

[smetzger]

Simple question.

When a party of 5 is walking through a 5' wide dungeion corridor are they all single file?

They do not have to be. The only clear rules are that OUTSIDE of combat you can have any number of people in a 5x5 square. IN combat if you have more than 1 in a 5x5 square you are restricted in some way, no mechanics are defined except in specific instances like grapple.

As for p.76 and the "completly restrictive area" quote.
1) no mention of multiple creatures here.
2) 2 people in a 5x5 square is hardly completly restrictive. Ever play basketball? Quite often there are multiple people 'fighting' for a rebound under the net, they don't seem 'completly restricted' to me.

 

[kreynolds]

Re: Re: How many people can be in a 5'X5' square?

2) 2 people in a 5x5 square is hardly completly restrictive. Ever play basketball? Quite often there are multiple people 'fighting' for a rebound under the net, they don't seem 'completly restricted' to me.

They also don't have a wave of fire coming at them while they're fighting for the ball.

 

[Umbran]

Re: Re: Re: How many people can be in a 5'X5' square?

They also don't have a wave of fire coming at them while they're fighting for the ball.

Yes, but if it's a "wave of fire", you shouldn't be able to dodge it anyway, so the argument is a little flimsy.

One way to deal with that - the fireball is supposed to be a "burst of flame". There's two ways to interpret that. One is in the Hollywood explosion vein, but that leaves darned little room for dodges for people who are actually within it's volume. The other image is as a whole mess of tongues of flame that evvectively, but not absolutely, fill the volume. Think of a giant Koosh of flame. That allows the possibility of dodging - fitting yourself in between the flames, getting hit by fewer of them.

*shrug* Just a thought.

 

[kreynolds]

Re: Re: Re: Re: How many people can be in a 5'X5' square?

Yes, but if it's a "wave of fire", you shouldn't be able to dodge it anyway

Right. But I already addressed that above.

 

[Artoomis]

Some situations in which you LOSE you Reflex Save:

1. Dex of "0" "DEX 0 means that the character cannot move at all. He stands motionless, rigid, and helpless." It does not say it quite directly, but obviously you get no Reflex save if you cannot move.

2. Any other stat of "0" - creates a condition of "Death" (Con) or "Helpless."

3. Helpless "...In fact, his Dexterity score is treated as if it were 0... "

4. No room to evade: "As with a Reflex save for any creature, a character must have room to move in order to evade. A bound character or one in a completely restrictive area (crawling through a 2 1/2 foot-wide shaft, for example) cannot use evasion."

Some situations in which you KEEP your Reflex Save:

1. Grappled: "Engaged in wrestling or some other form of hand-to-hand struggle with one or more attackers. A grappled character cannot move, cast a spell, fire a missile, or undertake any action more complicated than making a barehanded attack, attacking with a Small weapon, or attempting to break free from the opponent. In addition, grappled characters do not threaten any area and lose any Dexterity bonuses to AC against opponents they aren't grappling."

2. Pinned: "Held immobile (but not helpless) in a grapple. "

3. Prone: "The character is on the ground. He suffers a -4 penalty on melee attack rolls, and the only ranged weapon he can effectively use is a crossbow, which he may use without penalty. Opponents receive +4 bonuses on melee attack against him but -4 penalties on ranged attacks. Standing up is a move-equivalent action."

Putting all that together, it seems that the intent of the rules of Reflex Saves is that you only lose them when you are really quite restricted in your movements - more than simply two of you in a 5-foot square.

So when would you lose them?

Let's try and make up a couple of examples:

4 medium characters in a 5-foot square with no room outside that square (like a 5-foot square room).

Crawling though a 2-1/2 foot wide shaft (note that you cannot dodge because there is nowhere to go and you've got walls all around you).

Tied up (as in a bound prisoner).

It appears that someone holding you is NOT enough to prevent your save - if that's true, then two characters standing in a 5-foot square will not deny your save.

As far as combat restriction of more than one character in a 5-foot square, well, there are plenty of times when there are combat restrictions that do not affect your Reflex Save. There are quite a few examples in the Condition Summary list - look at how often you lose your Dex bonus for a condition that does not deny your Reflex Save.

So, Kreynolds, you logic is quite weak here. Perhaps you have a better argument you have not yet put forward?

 

[Macbrea]

You really cannot use the logic of if you cannot get out of the area of the spell you don't get a reflex save. Otherwise some spells are just impossible to save against.


Scene large open field flat as can be for as far as the eyes can see. Wizard casts a widened fireball at the rogue. He cannot evade because he cannot make it out of the area.


As you can see. That isn't true and not how the rules were intended. What is probably meant is if you cannot move to the next square by stepping you cannot evade. But they didn't say that so its a DMs judgement call what is too restricted.

 

[kreynolds]

So, Kreynolds, you logic is quite weak here.

My logic isn't weak at all. I give multiple options in handling reflex saves while grappling. It would be weak if I couldn't account for it.

 

[kreynolds]

You really cannot use the logic of if you cannot get out of the area of the spell you don't get a reflex save. Otherwise some spells are just impossible to save against.


Scene large open field flat as can be for as far as the eyes can see. Wizard casts a widened fireball at the rogue. He cannot evade because he cannot make it out of the area.

Exactly. It's not so simple a situation, so it takes a bit of work to make a good call.

As you can see. That isn't true and not how the rules were intended.

Right. Which is why I didn't simply duct tape it to make it work.

What is probably meant is if you cannot move to the next square by stepping you cannot evade.

I agree.

 

[Piratecat]

KReynolds, less aggressively nasty sarcasm, please. Just because someone disagrees with you is no reason to take it personally. If this is somehow a problem, feel free to email me.

Incidentally, it seems to me that there's no reason that someone should lose their save because two people are in a 5' x 5' square. At the very least, each of them could grab the other and try to use them as cover.

 

[Artoomis]

My logic isn't weak at all. I give multiple options in handling reflex saves while grappling. It would be weak if I couldn't account for it.

Of course, that's a bit more than a rules interpretation, that's more like a House Rule.

The question is what happens by the Core Rules.

The answer is to look at all I quoted above, and then make up your own mind for what happens to your Reflex Saves with two characters in a single square.

How you decide when a character's movement is too constricted for a Reflex Save is a bit loose in the rules, so you have to read ALL the rules that pertain to losing or keeping Reflex Saves and then decide using those rules as guides.

That's the closest I can come to a pure rules look at what happens to Reflex Saves with more than one medium-size character in a single 5-foot square.