How many spells/scroll?

[Hypersmurf]

I'm sorry, but IMO, the specific rules of Scroll Scribing override the general rules of magic item creation. That's why i think LokiDR's quote means that the caster who scribes the scroll has to be the one that has memorized the spell.

From the rules for creating a Rod:
If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the rod, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) but need not provide any material components or focuses the spells require, nor are any XP costs inherent in a prerequisite spell incurred in the creation of the item.

From the rules for creating a Magic Weapon:
If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the weapon, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) but need not provide any material components or focuses the spells require, nor are any XP costs inherent in a prerequisite spell incurred in the creation of the item. The act of working on the weapon triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the weapon’s creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from his currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.)

From the rules for creating Magic Armor:
If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the armor, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard), must provide any material components or focuses the spells require, and must pay any XP costs required for the spells. The act of working on the armor triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the armor’s creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from his currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.)

From the rules for creating a Wondrous Item:
If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the item, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) but need not provide any material components or focuses the spells require, nor are any XP costs inherent in a prerequisite spell incurred in the creation of the item. The act of working on the item triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the item’s creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from his currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.)


... in fact, for pretty much everything except Craft Ring! So the specific rules of crafting armor, weapons, rods, wondrous items, etc - which all state that the creator must prepare the spells - overrule the section that states the spells may come from a second caster, or from a charged item, or from a spell-like ability?

It seems unlikely.

-Hyp.

 

[Magic Slim]

... in fact, for pretty much everything except Craft Ring! So the specific rules of crafting armor, weapons, rods, wondrous items, etc - which all state that the creator must prepare the spells - overrule the section that states the spells may come from a second caster, or from a charged item, or from a spell-like ability?

It seems unlikely.

-Hyp.

I admire your thoroughness

So it IS possible to scribe 40 CLW spells in a day, you just need a bunch of friends...

 

[Hypersmurf]

So it IS possible to scribe 40 CLW spells in a day, you just need a bunch of friends...

Hmm. I think the person doing the scribing is limited to one scroll per day (whatever the definition of 'one scroll' is determined to be ), but one person could provide the spell for as many Scribers as he had CLWs prepared.

I have this image of a Cleric with the Leadership feat, with a bunch of Commoner followers who all have the Scribe Scroll feat, working in a CLW-scroll sweatshop...

EDIT - except that, of course, Scribe Scroll has a caster level prerequisite. I was thinking of Metamagic feats. So they'd need to be Clr-1 hirelings, and that's just not very cost-efficient. Especially since they could just cast the CLWs themselves.

-Hyp.

 

[Norfleet]

Hmm. I think the person doing the scribing is limited to one scroll per day (whatever the definition of 'one scroll' is determined to be ), but one person could provide the spell for as many Scribers as he had CLWs prepared.

I have this image of a Cleric with the Leadership feat, with a bunch of Commoner followers who all have the Scribe Scroll feat, working in a CLW-scroll sweatshop...

Such a thing did, in fact, exist in a form in reality: It was called a "monastery", where the monks would spend great portions of the day scribing books.

I could envision a monastery full of Clr1s and Adp1s (Do adepts get CLW?) scribing away at these scrolls.

 

[Magic Slim]

Hmm. I think the person doing the scribing is limited to one scroll per day (whatever the definition of 'one scroll' is determined to be ), but one person could provide the spell for as many Scribers as he had CLWs prepared.

I have this image of a Cleric with the Leadership feat, with a bunch of Commoner followers who all have the Scribe Scroll feat, working in a CLW-scroll sweatshop...

EDIT - except that, of course, Scribe Scroll has a caster level prerequisite. I was thinking of Metamagic feats. So they'd need to be Clr-1 hirelings, and that's just not very cost-efficient. Especially since they could just cast the CLWs themselves.

-Hyp.

I was talking about the other way around. One scriber, and a bunch of people who provide the CLW's. You have the master cleric with the Scribe Scroll feat, and all his followers provide him with the spell...

Slim

 

[Hypersmurf]

Such a thing did, in fact, exist in a form in reality: It was called a "monastery", where the monks would spend great portions of the day scribing books.

I could envision a monastery full of Clr1s and Adp1s (Do adepts get CLW?) scribing away at these scrolls.

Yeah, but not commoners or experts, which would have been more fun

And I was actually thinking of this earlier when Slim asked how the wizard would scribe a scroll of a spell that isn't on his list.

A lot of those monks were illiterate - they didn't copy books by reading and writing, but by reproducing the marks they could see on the page...

You don't need to understand what you're scribing. You just serve as a conduit to get the cleric's spell onto the page. Unfortunately, it gets there via an arcane caster, so it's an arcane scroll...

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I was talking about the other way around. One scriber, and a bunch of people who provide the CLW's. You have the master cleric with the Scribe Scroll feat, and all his followers provide him with the spell...

Just because someone else is supplying the spells doesn't lift the cap on number of items per day.

But it's never really been settled where one scroll of five spells is one item or five

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Double Post.

-Hyp.

 

[LokiDR]

Sorry, don't own 3.5... is the table you speak of the "treasure" table?

Yes, a treasure table.

I know you can find a scroll with multiple spells on it. This, for me, doesn't necessarily confirm that such items may be created.

It exists, but PCs can't make them? Is there some special feat? Is there some magical ability, perhaps called "NPC" that allows this to happen? I don't think so.

What I mean is why didn't they simply state, in the Magic Item Creation section, Scribing Scroll sub-section, that it is possible to put multiple spells on a single scroll. The way it is written in the SRD, it doesn't seem possible to write multiple spells on a scroll, just like it's not possible to whip up a gallon of Cure Light Wound potions...

It may not be written clearly, but I do think the answer is there. The only debate is whether those multiple spells count as different scrolls or the same. Given the name of that chart, I am leaning twords the former.

I was there the last time that question was debated (but probably not the numerous times before that), and I'm not trying to start the debate again. I'm just saying that each option is possible, as they did not make it Scribing-Scrolls-for-Dummy clear.

Not everything is that clear. They could have done a better job, but I think there are several places they did a worse job (darkness spell, for example).

 

[Magic Slim]

Let's say that a scroll with multiple spells on it is considered a single item in terms of Magic Item Creation (per LokiDR) and that the scriber of the scroll need not have the spell memorized, but that another caster can provide said spell (per Hypersmurf).

As an exercise (albeit a very silly one), 16 clerics of 1st level, with a 12 in wisdom, could technically produce, in a day, a single scroll containing 80 orisons. One cleric would act as the scriber, while the 15 others would provide the spells to be scribed (the scribing cleric would of course provide the feat, the XP, and his own spells).

Slim