How Might D&D Religions Differ From Real Life Religions?

[JiffyPopTart]

Just wanted to pop in and say...

1. Great thread.

2. I once played (in 2e) an atheist cleric. He went around trying to convince the other clerics that they were their own battery of power, and the whole religion aspect of everything was hocus.

3. I think that your afterlife plans would have a lot do to with what god you "follow" in DnD. Most folks would believe in all the gods and not necessary "follow" one in particular except the clergy. People would be more friendly to the good guy clergy, however, since when they died they might want to end up on the good guys playing field.

DS

 

[Herremann the Wise]

I think it would be interesting to put greater emphasis on faith (or not) in a D&D campaign. I could imagine the setup being something like:

- The majority of a church are laymen, scholars and the faithful.

- Most of the "Clerics" (that is with actual Divine Power) are very low level. All the magic that these low level cleric's perform is based on faith. All the "magic" they wield has no obvious effect. For example, the classic "Bless" gives a +1 to a particular character's activity. The character will succeed or fail with a percentage (5%) that the Bless turned a fail into a success (assume the character can actually succeed or fail at the task). Did the Blessing work? Surely the faithful would say of course it did, whereas those without faith would be equally as justified saying that the Cleric's blessing was all poppycock and for the gullible and insane. A faithful cleric receives a vision (or at least says he does). Is it true? Does it turn out to be true? Luck for the faithless but a sign of divine intervention and power for the faithful.

- Very few Clerics have obvious power, most likely being referred to as Saints. Or perhaps certain powerful rituals are only performed by such Clerics in private in a sanctified area? Perhaps these Saints become leaders in the Church, or perhaps due to politics they become pariahs or even heretics.

I like the idea that this gives the Cleric a chance to become someone of power and distinction, but at the same time holds tightly to the concept of faith (something perhaps normally taken for granted in typical D&D campaigns).

And then for the twist. Have a new faith where the divine power of Clerics is not only obvious but relatively abundant. The ambitious, greedy, political and most likely evil would flock to such a faith, possibly even fracturing it into sects as no group can maintain complete power over the church. Is the God they follow evil? Sounds like an interesting campaign concept to me.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[Stogoe]

Take a hypothetical religious ritual, lets say, " Say a prayer to Saint X and he'll help you find your lost car keys."

I'm just saying that a religious belief like that is much, much less likely in a world where there is a religion-keyed ritual called "Find Lost Car Keys" that always works and invokes explicitly magical effects.

After all, why would you pray to Saint X for help finding your car keys? You know the proper way to do that. With the ritual, not the quiet prayer.

I would ask, then, what the difference is between a Prayer to Saint X and a Religion-keyed Ritual to Saint X? Isn't a Religion-keyed Ritual just a prayer with codified game rules?

 

[ProfessorPain]

What features of real life religions couldn't apply to D&D religions?

What features probably wouldn't apply?

In what ways would (or could) D&D religions mirror real life religions?

There are no wrong answers, or at least I don't think there are.

Your thoughts?

1) None. All features are fair game when I make a setting. The only feature that would be hard to explain in my view is skepticism. Because you know the gods exist. Or at least see that their clerics have real power (perhaps though it could be explained as a arcane magic wrapped up fancy 'god talk'

2) I can't think of any that wouldn't apply.

3) One that designers should incorporate into D&D more is different churches, sects or religions around the same God(s) or principal. Think about how many different Christian sects there are. And how distinct their visions are of how to serve God. Or you could even have three different religions surrounding the same God (as you have with Christianity, Islam and Judaism)-- though this is harder to do because you really need a good explanation for why one group follows this prophet or believes another prophet to be divine.

 

[Jack7]

I can see some differences very easily. One major difference between most D&D gods and religions and a real world God and religion is that of subversiveness, and a Cosmic Plan.

For instance it is very easy for me to imagine, and believe, in a subversive Cosmic Plan of God, one which basically overthrows the nature of the world in which people live, and which has all kinds of secret and covert components. That is to say God has secret plans for the world, which the followers would find hard to imagine or conceive of, and hard to fathom correctly (though they might very well understand or even just intuit the basic implications of the plan). Because God would have no "real interest" in the world, per se, but rather it would be a stage, or construct upon which to play out his Cosmic Plan. But he has no real desire to see the "world" (as it is currently construed, functions, and is imagined) or the world system continue indefinitely. He has other things in mind. Because of this he would operate quite differently, even towards and in conjunction with his followers, than he would if he did not have such objectives.

A D&D god however is far more likely than not to be "a part of his world" (rather than existing independently of it) and therefore his plans would be objectives of intrigue, rather than of a secretive, covert, Cosmic Nature. A D&D god is "of his world" and is therefore intimately tied to it, and the fate of his world is to a large extent his fate as well. Yes, some gods, especially evil ones, might want to undo the world even, to a certain extent, or kill off all others deities, but mainly to gain power, than for other reasons. The Greek gods for instance were prone to much intrigue, playing their worshippers and followers in games of personal interest, for entertainment, out of basically human desires of lust (Eros) or greed or revenge, or for the sake of power. (The Trojan War is an excellent example of the same pantheon of gods engaged on different sides for different reasons. Many were involved in the war directly for personal aims, or to accomplish personal objectives, but none, not even Zeus, had a long-term Cosmic plan for the outcome of the war, or what it would ultimately achieve. In truth they did not know what it would achieve because few of the gods, Apollo could to a degree sometimes, could foresee the future.) But none of them could be said to have a true Cosmic Plan about the Cosmos, or life in general, or human life in particular. They weren't even really creators, they were usurpers who had assumed power from far more cosmic gods and forces far older than themselves.

And that was true of almost all polytheistic pantheons. Creator Gods and gods were very different things and had very different interests and motivations and objectives. Because a Creator God is not limited or absorbed in time as a god is so limited or absorbed. You can pray to a god, "what is your plan for the future?" but the god really knows only what he wants to happen, not what will actually happen. A Cosmic God with a Cosmic Plan, well, in that case you pray to him to try and help you understand what the future will be. Because he is not limited by time or the world, he stands beyond them, even when absorbed in them.

So as far as differences go, then I'd say gods are full of intrigue, but they have no real "End-Game."
But real God, especially a Creator God, he would very likely have an ongoing objective, even if that wasn't readily apparent to anyone else, or what they anticipated. He'd likely have a real objective, or set of them, far greater than sectarian interests or even worldly interests. He'd have a "Cosmic Plan" and so he'd operate completely differently than any god.

And any religion built around a God with a Cosmic plan is also going to be very, very different, and operate very, very differently than that of a god with individual and immediate interests. A god can to a certain extent control space, God would control, even if he choose to do so in a completely unforeseen or unanticipated manner, both space and time.

A god will have tactical interests. But he cannot know the ultimate fate of the world, only what is prophesied or assumed about it.

God on the other hand would have strategic interests and what is prophesied would be only a sort of assumption of his real objectives.

3) One that designers should incorporate into D&D more is different churches, sects or religions around the same God(s) or principal. Think about how many different Christian sects there are. And how distinct their visions are of how to serve God. Or you could even have three different religions surrounding the same God (as you have with Christianity, Islam and Judaism)-- though this is harder to do because you really need a good explanation for why one group follows this prophet or believes another prophet to be divine.

I like and agree with that idea.

 

[WayneLigon]

Of course there are infinite variations on D&D worlds, so this mainly applies to the 'default D&D world' that you can extropolate from the rules.

What features of real life religions couldn't apply to D&D religions?

Doubt, for one.

There's Detect Evil. You never again have to worry about if someone is truly evil, only if they are insane, under some form of mind control, or just marginally bad. And you can cure the insane or the controlled.

It's only because it would remove the game too far from the realm of what we know that there are many actually Evil people at all in a D&D world. I mean, if you knew someone was Evil, would you honestly have anything to do with them even if they've been nothing but nice to you? I think not.

Sure there are ways around it, but they either don't last long or they're just as much a giveaway eventually.

Likewise, you can tell if someone is truly a Good person. They would naturally gravitate to positions of trust and honor. You can tell if someone is Lawful or Chaotic, as well. You don't want the chaotic type in a position of true responsibility (not that they'd accept anyway, but still...).

There's a fascinating and cheap magic item called the Phylactery of Faithfulness. It tells you if you're about to do something that could jeapordize your alignment, or your standing with your diety, before you do it. Can you imagine the boatloads of sorrow, stress, tears, anger and sadness that item could prevent? "Bob, that's stealing; you're in danger of falling from the path of Good if you do it." "I'm about to kill a man, and... the phylactery isn't saying anything. God must approve!" "Cera the Merciful doesn't like what you're doing there, Sally. You're in danger of displeasing Her."

There are no real questions about the afterlife. Sufficiently high level priests can go there, and take others with them. They can look around, take souveniers, speak to the servants of their God and get answers, see loved ones and ask how things are going, etc.

You know there is a Hell, and that bad people go there. You know there are in fact such things as demons and all sorts of other horrible monsters that can make you a bad person, even if you didn't want to be one. You can be destroyed by a demon or evil spell or such and have your soul taken to Hell even if you've never done a single bad thing in your life.

What features probably wouldn't apply?

There probably are not nearly as many 'sects'. Any sect that drifts too far afield from the view of the god loses it's power, or has an Archon show up to correct them. Your chaotic religions will have more, perhaps, and your lawful ones very few disagreements.

 

[steamboat28]

There's Detect Evil. You never again have to worry about if someone is truly evil, only if they are insane, under some form of mind control, or just marginally bad. And you can cure the insane or the controlled...

There's a fascinating and cheap magic item called the Phylactery of Faithfulness. It tells you if you're about to do something that could jeapordize your alignment, or your standing with your diety, before you do it...

There are no real questions about the afterlife...

You know there is a Hell, and that bad people go there...

There probably are not nearly as many 'sects'...

As true as all these statements are from the standpoint of PCs, it's highly unlikely that any of these assurances are found among the average person in a D&D society.

The average member of a D&D society isn't going to necessarily have access to the "high-level" clergy that can cast these spells regularly. And if they did, they wouldn't spend all their divine power (spell slots) and time doing this for every Tom, Dick, and Hrothgar. There are priests and laymen that run the local congregation, while the Paladins champion their gods' agendas and Clerics either undertake missions to put that much divine power to good use, or cloister themselves in a congregation of their own, communing with the divine.

I think one thing that we, as players, take for granted when playing is that PCs are the best their race has to offer. Even at level 1, by having a single class level in a PC class, you're better at whatever it is you do than most of your race. Adventurers do not people the whole of Oerth or Eberron or wheresoever-have-you, and the vast majority of everyone you meet is much more normal than you.

That means Clerics, as we (the players) know them, are the equivalents of high-ranking bishops, arch-bishops, and saints. The jobs aren't necessarily analogous, but the amount of spiritual authority and spiritual purpose are. Clerics have better things, more important things, to do than spend their times doing priestly duties and nothing else. They are granted miraculous powers by their deity to change the very face of the world. That's not to say that some aren't content summoning a feast to feed the hungry, or handing out Tiny Huts for the homeless, but it is to say that they do more than lead a congregation (however you might determine "more".)

I said all that to say this: because Clerics have so much on their plate ("With great power..." and all that Uncle Ben stuff), there is still room for doubt. The average person may hear about Father Boniface, Priest of St. Cuthbert, bringing justice to a faraway town with his blessed cudgel, but they probably didn't see it first-hand. They may have been told about Priestlord Argus, Blessed Paladin-Defender of Pelor, wiping out an entire infestation of undead in their town centuries earlier, and becoming a local saint.

So what? I've heard many stories of people in my faith displaying Cleric-level abilities, but I didn't see them occur; I still have doubt, why can't the peasants?

 

[Greg K]

Especially when the 3e rules explicitly state you can have clerics and paladins who don't follow gods.

Personally, I and everyone I knew regardless of group found the above to be lame in a world where deities exist and grant powers. One of the first house rules from everyone I have, personally, met was you have to worship a deity to be a cleric, paladin. YMMV.

 

[Aldarc]

Has anyone else been slightly puzzled by how D&D religion is often basically a henotheistic theology (pick your god of choice) that does not really follow similar polytheistic ecclesiastical structures of let's say the Greco-Roman pagan world, but more monotheistic-like (i.e. medieval Christian) ecclesiastical structures?

 

[Greg K]

I think that are too many variables. Do deity's have exclusive access to domains? How active are they in mortal affairs? What are relationships like between members of the pantheon? Are these relationships played out in the mortal realm? Are priests generic to the pantheon or are priests dedicated to individual deites? If dedicated priests, do deities grant all priests some ability to cast minor spells or to priests of deities aligned with them and save more powerful spells for their own priests? If dedicated priests, do they only grant spells to these dedicated individuals?

I think people in general are going to be mindful of all the deities (if they are active or there are people that cast "miracles" in their name. Some individuals or a whole nation may have a patron based on occupation or subsistaece, but the other deities control domains that still affect their daily lives. In some cases you may not want to piss off the dark god, if there is one, and attract his wrath, in which case you do rituals do appease him. Other times or pantheons, you perform rituals to keep him or her at bay.

In some instances, the dark gods are going to be the one's that punish the sinners. They may be the dark that takes the form of a beautiful woman and uses her wiles to lure drunk men that stray into the forest at night further into the forest where she can devour them. This could affect social mores and behavior where people don't drink or not to excess and stay to the roads at night.

Regardless of deities and their , you may still have people that turn to the dark adversary god if one exists. They may do so for power, greed, envy, love, lust, revenge, having been deceived or a host of other reasons.