How often do your players loose the adventure?

[Evilhalfling]

My players stay out!





Some clarifications, the characters didn't die, they cleverly avoided a TPK by negotiating their way out of a possibly deadly situation. But they clearly lost.
They didn't get the stolen sword back, they didn't save the woman, and they went home vaguely dissatisfied, they even lost the impromptu city footrace.
The adventure was a complicated maze of plots and the PC's slipped -
Do other DM's re-feed overlooked clues, use railroading to drive PC's too a conclusion or do you just let the villains win occasionally? - By tactics not combat.

Details:
The woman was one players father's beloved, Dame Meeks - vanished in the company of a halfling and an old woman - the fathers magic sword a +2 air bane, vanished at the same time (during a trade festival) the loss of the sword was discovered two days later.

What the players found out- the father had gotten mad at her and started a fight he exposed her dark secret- she performed abortions (in modern terms this is a gray issue, and one which I support, but to a medieval mind is evil) she was so upset she left, and abandoned the society of men, knowing that she may become an outcast again. She pledged herself to darkness led by her two friends (both hags) and became a hag herself.

The players tracked the hags down, and spoke with her, finding her in the midst of a transformation. She denied taking the sword and they double checked with a locate object. The hags didn't really want to kill them, as the pc's made no secret of there coming in the nearby town, where the hags were known as witches. Dame Meeks (the father's beloved) also argued against killing them out of hand.

The players also found an oracle of the goddess of winds - which had recently become active (two months previously). They learned several people had disappeared near the oracle but made no connection. Two barbarian tribes held the oracle. A critical failure on a diplomacy roll resulted in banishment from one tribe and the other demanded a steep fee to speak with the oracle - the PC's declined, they had just found out where the hags lived through diplomacy.

What they missed - The halfling hag was a psionist - which is a well-established trend in my world. Hafling society is led by female seers-
She used a suggestion to force dad to accuse his beloved of abortions in a public place - then used a suggestion to get Dame Meeks to flee town with them. Dame Meeks is a low-level adept and was sought out by hags to complete their coven. They convinced her to become a hag on the long trip.
One player also realized that Dame Meeks had an aura of enchantment, but didn't pass that along or realize possibilities.

The sword was stolen by the ministry of winds - a group of possed creatures running the oracle. (Modified ministry of winds from WotC web site)The sword is a Bane of Air Outsiders and was crafted to oppose the ministry 100 years earlier - the revived group stole the sword in their plot TO TAKE OVER THE WORLD! - Ala pinky and the brain. They are a clueless group of villains. Occasional good ideas but widely delusional.

Wrap up The party was down two PC's for this adventure and attacking the hags would most likely have been a TPK. (3 5th lvl vs. CR 3,6,7)
So in essence they didn't follow enough of the plot threads to discover the misdeeds of the villains, and lacked strong reasons to pursue the kill. They plan on returning to the oracle, so still have hopes of recovering sword, but the woman is clearly lost.

Do other DM's re-feed overlooked clues, use railroading to drive PC's to a conclusion or do you just let the villains win occasionally? - By tactics not combat. The players had a lot of fun tracking down leads, but I think were unsatisfied by the lack of strong ending.

 

[Chimera]

What is wrong with the villains winning occasionally? This is how you get recurring villains. Also a great source of adventure and rivalry for the party, knowing that so-and-so has soundly beaten them before.

Name me a scifi/action/adventure TV show where the villains have never won - ever.

 

[Djeta Thernadier]

Well, we have had villians get away. And recently our entire party missed a major clue that caused us to waste a bit of time. I mean we found things to do during that time but still.

The clue was a candle we found in a tin with a note and strange wooden thing we still haven't identified. Anyway, we NEVER thought to light the candle. We thought of melting it , to see if there was something inside it, we thought of holding on to it in case it transformed into something else, we thought of 101 possible uses for said candle EXCEPT LIGHTING IT.

Finally , the DM seeing we were not going to get it, told us to try lighting it. We did. It turned out to illuminate arcane marks that lead us on a trail to where we needed to be.

We're still baffled that none of us thought to light the thing.


But as for really losing - I don't see D&D as a win/lose game. Some of the PCs in my party have died. Some haven't. Sometimes villians get away. Sometimes they don't. It's all woven into the story.

 

[StalkingBlue]

Sure. PCs have lost in games I ran/run, and I've been on the losing side as a player. I've also played in one ongoing game where PCs never could lose - and victories in that game tasted stale. (That game was still fun, sorta, for hanging out with a nice group of buddies, but the gaming part of those nights wasn't very satisfying.)

In my current Midnight game, the PCs abandoned their first mission after running into their first group of orcs. They lost their second, self-chosen mission to escort an Elf who was carrying a (the Elf claimed) important artifact - half true because while the artifact was in fact very important, it was being transported to help the Bad Guys. It cost one PC his life.
They went on to win a glorious victory over a very powerful BBEG by smart tactics, again losing one PC due to an unfortunate crit by the BBEG (sigh).
And are currently in a bit of a mess (with two PCs captive and two fugitives behind enemy lines) after losing a battle against their first group of Bad Guys with good tactics - I'll call that a draw for now.

 

[Psion]

Nitpick: the word "lose" is probably what you are looking for. But I can think of a situation or two where the pcs did "loose" the adventure, like the time they released that fallen angel, and the time where they spread the shadow sickness that fed a dark god...

At any rate, if the villain is getting away is losing, my PCs do it all the time. Sometimes unwittingly. Other times, there are multiple levels of winning or losing in many campaigns I run.

 

[Bendris Noulg]

The players usually "win" the adventures, however, there are several shades of gray to look at...

"Wins" that aren't total wins... Ex: The evil outpost is cleared out, but the high priest's acolyte escaped with the big book of vile ickiness.

"Wins" that are only misdirection... Ex: The evil outpost is cleared out, allowing the party's patron/employer to gain access to the evil temple within it.

"Wins" that turn into disastors... Ex: The evil outpost is cleared out, but the party inadvertantly release something bigger, badder, and more evil.

"Wins" that are precise/surgical... Ex: The PCs track down a specific item or creature within the evil outpost, avoiding (and thus leaving behind) anything that is not necessary to eliminate to obtain their goal.

I'd say my campaign is more full of these kinds of "wins" than they are "total victories", particularly the last one followed by the first one.

At the same time, PCs have "lost" enounters, which can be quite devestating in its own right.

 

[Pants]

The PC's don't always 'win' adventures, but they almost never 'lose.' ie I've never TPKed them, but I have driven them off, had villains escape, or basically screwed with them on occasion.

 

[DragonLancer]

I've not had a lose story in my current campaign, although they were "chased" away from their base of operations after the city fell to a superior invading force and they didn't like the option of being a gurella force. Their call but it left them wandering and without allies, until they successfully managed to liberate that city last session.

The villains of the campaign are still in a winning position at the moment.

 

[random user]

For every mystery, and indeed many encounters, I give my players the opportunity to lose, and spend a few minutes on what, if anything, happens as a result of it (like for example, in your campaign, now that the coven is formed, it might become more powerful and start opening harrassing people, eventually becoming a real menace. In a couple levels the players may be forced to deal with the hags again in some other setting, and when they do, I bet they'll think "Wow this would have been a lot easier if we could have taken care of this the first time around").

Luckily my players are pretty smart (and there are 6, and 6 heads, while sometimes making decision-making slower, will also come up with more ideas than just a couple) so they haven't outright lost anything yet.

The other thing I do is for each important clue, I make sure there are multiple (usually 2 or 3) ways they can discover the clue / solve the mystery.

So for example, for the hags, I might have had a handmaiden/friend of the woman who will insist that she knew the woman didn't perform abortions, and that it was just an evil conspiracy. The friend might not outright say anything, but if the players are alert, they will notice she gets a dirty look and stats shaking her head any time the abortions are mentioned.

Or maybe the party will overhear a fight between the father and his advisor. The advisor is complaining that the father has changed recently, and for the worse (it's possible that the hags are also suggesting he do other things). Maybe start the overheard conversation with "Have you lost your mind?" said by the advisor in an incredulous tone.

Just my 2cp

 

[kirinke]

heh. i'm currently playing in a game where the players are trying to convince a naga and her lizardmen followers that the current bbeg is out of the picture. unfortuantly, my character accidently wandered too close to the naga's swamp and was rrr dominated.

so now, until they can figure out a way to negotiate my freedom i'm currently reduced to mentally singing '99 bottles of ale on the wall'. my character is literally singing to herself and she's singing the most annoying songs she can come up with. next post.... i'm going to have her sing 'the song that never ends'.

moral of the story. even if you are in an uncomfortable position, make the most of it. so... now my character is singing annoying songs she's learned from a previous gnome companion. ^)^