How powerful is Crimson Edge?

[Sitara]

As I understand it, a level 27 rogue is not likely to use 'crimson edge' any longer. As best as I can tell, you have a limited number of per day and per encounter slots. The number of available slots won't increase very much, so mostly rather than getting more powers you'll be trading out existing powers for more powerful versions. So very likely a level 27 rogue will have chosen for his per day power something like 'Terribly Bloody Ginsu Strike' rather than a power he first qualified for at level 9.

I don't think powers will be swpaped out like sorc spells or bo9s powers in 3e. IMO in 4e once you select a power you keep it. The fact that base damage probably goes up as you level (as in SAGA) ought to aid in the powers staying useful at higher levels, even if the powers are not modified to be that way (for instance a few of the powers specifically mention having a greater effect at level 21+)

Another thing to keep inmind is that perhaps crimson strikes's greatest beneifit is that it grants combat advantage against the foe; perhaps a higher level ability might be death strike, or seomthing, that allows the rogue tokill the oponent when he hascombat advantage in one blow. That would make crimson edge even more powerful by default.


I just hope that since shruiken is now a 'core' weapon, there is a talent that aloows a flurry of shruikens to be tossed in one go, lik ein so many anime. Maybe a storm of steel talent that allows up to 5 shruiken to be toseed in one round, by taking a -2 penalty to the attack roll (each additional shruiken does +1d6 damage or something)

 

[Celebrim]

Unclear on some of that, but what I expect is a unified progression chart that looks something like:

Level    BAB     Defenses     At Will     Encounter    Daily    Utility
1         0         0            2          1            1       0
2         1         1            2          1            1       1
3         1         1            2          2            1       1
4         2         2            3          2            1       1
5         2         2            3          3            2       1

and so on...
tweak it however, its just a guess. Actually I think the number of per encounter abilities will probably be fairly low- if they aren't you'll never need to attack normally or use at will powers.

That seems right, though:

a) We know that the rogue gets two at will and a daily at 1st level.
b) I'd expect that the number of options you have increases more slowly than your table suggests. For example, you might not get your second per encounter or daily until taking a paragon path at 10th level.

 

[Celebrim]

I don't think powers will be swpaped out like sorc spells or bo9s powers in 3e. IMO in 4e once you select a power you keep it.

I honestly don't know. Since the first previews, I've guessed otherwise but they continue to take the system to places I didn't expect.

The fact that base damage probably goes up as you level (as in SAGA) ought to aid in the powers staying useful at higher levels, even if the powers are not modified to be that way (for instance a few of the powers specifically mention having a greater effect at level 21+)

Alot of the speculation when taken together just doesn't add up for me. Take the speculation that damage goes up per SW:SE. Particularly when combined with the speculation that there are no negative attribute bonuses, this produces some pretty powerful effects.

Suppose 30th level rogue with shortsword +5, brawny build, 14 STR, 26 DEX. Expected damage from his at will attack is (1d6+5+15)x2 + 7 + 13 + 5d6 = 68. Even if the damage from level is not doubled, that's still 53 damage per attack and I have no clue how to break the system. That much damage would seem to work against the goal of reducing the number of fights that are won in the first round or two, since it would imply 200-300 damage per round from a party of 5 PC's who aren't even stretching themselves.

Right at this moment, I'm not sure that we can assume things like base damage increases with level.

 

[WyzardWhately]

Just a thought - crimson edge does a flat 5/round as part of its extra effects. That damage isn't scaling. Also, if the target's saving every round, he's got a pretty decent chance of throwing it off before the damage adds up to anything significant for a high level bad guy. It's the "grants combat advantage" that matters, IMHO. That probably opens the target up for nasty rogue attacks predicated on the target granting CA, moreso than just Sneak Attack.

 

[bording]

That much damage would seem to work against the goal of reducing the number of fights that are won in the first round or two, since it would imply 200-300 damage per round from a party of 5 PC's who aren't even stretching themselves

One thing to keep in mind is that 200-300 points of damage won't all be directed at a single monster. With the way 4E encounter design works, if you've got 5 PCs, there will likely be 5 monsters as well. When you've got that many different targets for damage, encounters should still last a while.

 

[Keenath]

Also, if the target's saving every round, he's got a pretty decent chance of throwing it off before the damage adds up to anything significant for a high level bad guy.

Well, I dunno about THAT. The Pit Fiend has a +2 on saves (no differentiation), which suggests the saves are against a set DC like 15 or something and chances aren't supposed to be particularly high across the board.

 

[Stalker0]

That seems right, though:

a) We know that the rogue gets two at will and a daily at 1st level.
b) I'd expect that the number of options you have increases more slowly than your table suggests. For example, you might not get your second per encounter or daily until taking a paragon path at 10th level.

I figure the at will powers can scale much faster than the per encounter and per day slots. After all, at will powers naturally compete with each other, its the actions that matter. Per encounter and per day powers add cumulatively to your overall power.

 

[Sir Brennen]

Well, I dunno about THAT. The Pit Fiend has a +2 on saves (no differentiation), which suggests the saves are against a set DC like 15 or something and chances aren't supposed to be particularly high across the board.

Remember, 3E Saves = 4E Defenses, not Saves. 4E Saves are different in that they are more specifically for ongoing effects, like dying, being on fire, bleeding, etc. From the preview article on Death and Dying, plus the recently released DDM rules, it looks like you roll 10 or higher on d20 to save. No DC. The pit fiend essentially has to roll an 8 or higher.

So, yeah, the continued bleeding will usually be shaken off after just a couple rounds, though the target rolling less than 10 ten times in a row is possible.

 

[Colmarr]

Level    BAB     Defenses     At Will     Encounter    Daily    Utility
1         0         0            2          1            1       0
2         1         1            2          1            1       1
3         1         1            2          2            1       1
4         2         2            3          2            1       1
5         2         2            3          3            2       1

I don't think there will be a separate progression for "utility" powers. Tumble, for example, is specifically identified as an Encounter power, suggesting IMO that a rogue will need to choose between utility powers and attack powers with the same "pool" of available slots.

 

[M.L. Martin]

My own guess is that characters will typically gain attack powers at odd levels and utility powers at even levels.