How powerful should magic be?

[AllisterH]

We've gone over the power-level argument for the fighter and it has gotten somewhat heated (especially with the tidbits released by WOTC) but I'm wondering, what about the actual magic using classes?

I mean, take this image from 2E.

The guy's bringing down a CASTLE by himself. I'll admit, I've always judged fighters against images like that but 4E is a new game.

Do we want our 15th level mages being able to bring down a castle by themselves? At 20th level, how powerful should magic be in the hands of players?

Now, this is a little harder since frankly, we don't really HAVE that many sources to draw inspiration from for magic wielding protoganists (I mean, of the D&D influences, how many star a magic wielding protoganist?)

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

Magic should be the most powerful overall force in any fantasy setting, but optimally all classes should be individually equal in power. I love that picture too, but if you think about it that mage isn't very smart. I mean, c'mon fire does half damage to objects!

 

[Cadfan]

In my personal opinion, magic, when used on a daily basis, should be about equal to what you'd expect from a game design perspective if you built a character who attacks just as often as a fighter, but who sacrifices armor and hit points for damage and standing in the back. So slightly better than melee combat, balanced against lower durability.

Magic, when used on a long term, ritual-like basis, should be incredibly powerful. This is no longer combat tactic territory, this is magic-as-a-plot-point territory. This is dark rituals that summon evil gods.

 

[AllisterH]

In my personal opinion, magic, when used on a daily basis, should be about equal to what you'd expect from a game design perspective if you built a character who attacks just as often as a fighter, but who sacrifices armor and hit points for damage and standing in the back. So slightly better than melee combat, balanced against lower durability.

Magic, when used on a long term, ritual-like basis, should be incredibly powerful. This is no longer combat tactic territory, this is magic-as-a-plot-point territory. This is dark rituals that summon evil gods.

That is something I can get behind.

I like the imagery/fluff of the wizard doing a ritual to pull of a major spell (and major being anything over 6th level) and the ritual itself requiring say an hr/spell level.

 

[apoptosis]

In a traditional fantasy setting it should be the most powerful force in the game. The wielders should have the ability to accomplish things that surpasses anything a non-magic wielder can.

There should be significant drawbacks or prices to being able to use magic and to the act of using magic, with the more powerful magic having a correspondingly higher price.

I know i am probably in a minority in this thinking.

 

[Rechan]

In my personal opinion, magic, when used on a daily basis, should be about equal to what you'd expect from a game design perspective if you built a character who attacks just as often as a fighter, but who sacrifices armor and hit points for damage and standing in the back. So slightly better than melee combat, balanced against lower durability.

Magic, when used on a long term, ritual-like basis, should be incredibly powerful. This is no longer combat tactic territory, this is magic-as-a-plot-point territory. This is dark rituals that summon evil gods.

I agree with this.

Mages of 25+ level should be able to level mountains. However, Fighters of 25+ level should be able to decimate armies. We're talking about Achilles here. Magic should be Powerful, but the Fighter in the party should not have to take a back seat in upper level play.

 

[WayneLigon]

One thing I'm hoping we'll finally see in core is some sort of ritual magic ability to carry off the entire range of 'Call down a plague upon the land'-type magic.

There are a few things I've seen like the spell shown above. Arcana Unearthed has a tenth-level (levels in AU go up to 25) Exotic (meaning, you have to spend a feat just to learn that one spell) spell called Invoked Devestation: Range 1 mile/level line of sight, All in 100-foot/level radius take 10d6 points of damage/ round for 1 round/level, considered to be all elements and energy types and each person has to make a Reflex save every round. You can cast it once per year. That's your 'wipe this fortress off the map' spell.

 

[Irda Ranger]

In my personal opinion, magic, when used on a daily basis, should be about equal to what you'd expect from a game design perspective if you built a character who attacks just as often as a fighter, but who sacrifices armor and hit points for damage and standing in the back. So slightly better than melee combat, balanced against lower durability.

Magic, when used on a long term, ritual-like basis, should be incredibly powerful. This is no longer combat tactic territory, this is magic-as-a-plot-point territory. This is dark rituals that summon evil gods.

I'd agree with this.

Iron Heroes has a cool conceit called the "Dread Sorcerer" villain class. He can do stuff the PC's can't even dream of, and if the PC's ask how he can do it, Step 1 is selling your soul to a Demon ... so, NPC's only.

You can put the Ritual thing into the rules too, just with really long rituals, and material components that require a quest to track down, etc. In fact, it's usually assumed by pro adventure writers that this sort of thing is possible - otherwise, what would be the point of all those cults collecting sacrificial virgins and the body-parts of Vecna?

 

[Irda Ranger]

One thing I'm hoping we'll finally see in core is some sort of ritual magic ability to carry off the entire range of 'Call down a plague upon the land'-type magic.

Eh. That really doesn't need to be Core. At most, a short paragraph in the DMG about the magic spells given in the book being a "mere sample" of what is possible with magic would be enough. A short expansion book would be the better way to go here, since most people don't need complex rules on this sort of thing. In ~15 years of gaming, I never have.

I usually hand-wave this stuff. When I write adventures, I just say "There's this cult, and they're trying to collect the seven shards of Tharzidun's sword - you probably want to stop them." And when I do world design I always assume that the PHB spell list is just the stuff most often memorized by adventuring wizards. There's a different spell list for the clerics and wizards who spend their lives in "office jobs", tending to their flock or city-folk clientèle. Non-adventuring clerics and wizards probably get a lot more mileage out of the "hedge magics" that meet the every-day needs of the people around them. But actually including this list in the PHB would be a waste of space.

 

[frankthedm]

Iron Heroes has a cool conceit called the "Dread Sorcerer" villain class. He can do stuff the PC's can't even dream of, and if the PC's ask how he can do it, Step 1 is selling your soul to a Demon ... so, NPC's only.

This was a big reason i was happy Mearls was on the job.