How secure is a Magnificent Mansion?

[kigmatzomat]

He must be using a modified Gate spell, or not?

I think it is impossible to open a gate into an extradimensional space normally,

I don't recall any rules specifically preventing gates or teleports to function in extradimensional spaces other than the need to locate the place. Depending on whether you declare ED spaces to be part of the original plance or a pocket in astral space (or something else) will determine if teleport works, but AFAIK, Gate will go anywhere. You'll need some kind of scrying to target the inside of the MMM but after that, poof, there you are.

and it actually violates the spell description, too, which clearly states, that other beings cannot enter the mansion and it cannot be entered other than through the special portal.

I would interpret that to mean "there are no other opening that a being can pass through and that opening closes when you say so" rather than "an impenetrable barrier surrounds the extradimensional space."

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Regarding MMM, in principle, I see no reason that Gate or even Plane Shift could not potentially access the space. In practice, it would break the spirit of the spell given its level and intended use if doing so were not very, very difficult.

IMHO, a spellcaster who has a high Spellcraft, Knowledge Planar, and Knowledge Arcana, and a few undisturbed hours to examine the entrance, should be able to crack the safety of the Mansion.

 

[Someone]

Unfortunately, leaving is not possible here, as the adventure dictates that the BBEG stay put while she develops her spell in a set location. Time is of the essence, but unfortunately there is no way for the players to know how much, short of their capturing one of the few non-undead enemies around, or my telling them out of character, which I'd like to avoid.

Maybe the BBG can use his own Magnificent Mansion?
Listen at waht your players do and use it against them in the future

 

[Cheiromancer]

I don't think that nightmare will work across dimensional boundaries.

I wouldn't allow dimension door or teleport to work either. You need something that can cross from one plane to another. I guess I'm effectively treating the magnificent mansion as a demi-plane.

Can a 3.5 scrying spell reach into other planes? The spell description says "any distance," but I don't know if that covers regions that are separated by something other than distance.

 

[andargor]

The SRD strongly suggests that the Mansion is in fact a demiplane:

Demiplanes: This catch-all category covers all extradimensional spaces that function like planes but have measurable size and limited access. Other kinds of planes are theoretically infinite in size, but a demiplane might be only a few hundred feet across.

If there's a 15th level wizard BBEG somewhere, he can cast Dimensional Lock around the entrance. At 1 day/level, this will effectively imprison the PCs while the baddies get reinforcements or formulate a plan, unless they can Plane Shift somewhere else, then come back to the Material. Don't forget that Plane Shifting is far from an exact science...

If there's a monster in the castle that can Plane Shift as a Su or Sp ability, they can go to the Mansion without needing a fork.

The fact that the Mansion is a demi-plane allows the use of Gate.

Andargor

 

[Thanee]

Sounds reasonable, Andargor. Normally I wouldn't consider an extradimensional space as a "plane", but that seems to pretty strongly point into that direction.

But, of course, it still would require extensive knowledge about the place to be able to get there (even for monsters who do not need forks or anything ).

And it would still somewhat violate the spell effect, since it includes, that noone else can enter the mansion.

Bye
Thanee

 

[htetickrt]

Wow, great responses! Rather than quote them individually, I'll try to address the major points.

Strategy: Having the various BBEGs left prepare surprises upon exiting is certainly clever, but their resources are diminished at the moment. For one thing, the group's snuck up to the highest level in the castle and preceeded to eliminate nearly all the fodder in the place, along with about a third of the top people. For another, they just sent the password to the forbiddance (3E rules, so no entering w/o it) to the huge army outside the castle, and so those enemies left will be dealing with said army within the hour. At the moment the party and the army have a vague alliance which will be broken if the army wins, but this doesn't help the castle's residents. I'm not trying to find a way to kill the party, just a way for its enemies to act appropriately given the circumstances. It's not feasible for the enemy to run, and their strategic task is to hold off the party from entering a new area. Almost all of them left are either fanatically loyal to the overall BBEG, or controlled undead. This brings us to

Rules: Almost all of the solutions offered require that the enemy leaders know that the party has used the mansion rather than simply teleporting away, which means either someone was watching as it was cast, or they can scry for the group inside the mansion, or they have people free to comb the inside of the castle for magic. So, I guess my remaining questions are:

1) Can they scry (3.0) inside the MMM?
2) Can an extradimensional space be opened and accessed within a forbiddance? Relatedly, can bags of holding be used within one?

 

[Vlos]

Well if its an extra dimensional space, then I think most of these devices (bags of holding and such) would not function. And if someone tried to access one, it would rip as would a bag of holding dumping onto another plane (where demi-pocket exists - if you go that route). PCs would probably know this though with decent SP check.

If no one can enter (for what ever ruling you want) then the PCs cannot exit via any means either. Thus if BBEG sees/finds the enterance he can place a wall of stone/force or some other object to block entrance back to the plane. Think of Stargate and their Irus(sp) [splat!].

Also if they cannot exit, what happens when the spell ends? Anything left is dumped onto the demi-plane? plopped back into the current plane, if so I would assume they are stunned, sort of like dimension door into blocked area.

 

[andargor]

1) Can they scry (3.0) inside the MMM?
2) Can an extradimensional space be opened and accessed within a forbiddance? Relatedly, can bags of holding be used within one?

Sorry, I don't have 3.0 anymore, but I'll respond with 3.5, and then you can check if it matches.

If you have a cleric that can cast Discern Location:

A Discern location spell is among the most powerful means of locating creatures or objects. Nothing short of a mind blank spell or the direct intervention of a deity keeps you from learning the exact location of a single individual or object. Discern location circumvents normal means of protection from scrying or location. The spell reveals the name of the creature or object's location (place, name, business name, building name, or the like), community, county (or similar political division), country, continent, and the plane of existence where the target lies.

Alternatively, Scrying allows you to view other planes:

You can see and hear some creature, which may be at any distance. If the subject succeeds on a Will save, the scrying attempt simply fails. The difficulty of the save depends on how well you know the subject and what sort of physical connection (if any) you have to that creature. Furthermore, if the subject is on another plane, it gets a +5 bonus on its Will save.

The cleric should of course try to scry a Fighter.


Forbiddance is very much like Dimensional lock, and covers a huge area. This would be a very logical tactic for an enemy cleric, especially if he/she thinks the PCs teleport away. The cleric could use it to protect any areas around and leading to the BBEG.

Forbiddance seals an area against all planar travel into or within it. This includes all teleportation spells (such as dimension door and teleport), plane shifting, astral travel, ethereal travel, and all summoning spells. Such effects simply fail automatically.

At 60ft-cube/level (S) and with a minimum size of 10', the cleric could cover most of the strategic areas.

Andargor

 

[htetickrt]

Forbiddance is very much like Dimensional lock, and covers a huge area. This would be a very logical tactic for an enemy cleric, especially if he/she thinks the PCs teleport away. The cleric could use it to protect any areas around and leading to the BBEG.

So here's the key. With scrying of some sort likely to work eventually, can they manifest a MMM inside of a dimensional lock/forbiddance and, if so, can they enter/exit it? I guess it depends on how you view the extradimensional subspace. If it is merely an offshoot of the plane, then it would think it would work, but the definition of demiplanes you posted earlier would seem ti imply that it is separate, in which case it should not work.

So, is there some concrete ruling about this (which I guess includes whether or not a bag of holding could be used within a forbiddance as well), or is it just fodder for a very specific poll?