How secure is a Magnificent Mansion?

[Saeviomagy]

To Saeviomagy: Unfortunately, leaving is not possible here, as the adventure dictates that the BBEG stay put while she develops her spell in a set location.

You have to think: Which is more important to the BBEG - this spell or her life. I think it'd be a pretty rare individual who would choose the spell, unless there were absolutely no other way of achieving their goals if this attempt failed.

Time is of the essence, but unfortunately there is no way for the players to know how much, short of their capturing one of the few non-undead enemies around, or my telling them out of character, which I'd like to avoid.

So have the BBEG succeed. Why are the players assaulting the place if they don't know what's going on there? At this sort of level, they should have been using divinations to work out what the problem is, or at least making an effort to interrogate their foes.

 

[htetickrt]

You have to think: Which is more important to the BBEG - this spell or her life. I think it'd be a pretty rare individual who would choose the spell, unless there were absolutely no other way of achieving their goals if this attempt failed.

So have the BBEG succeed. Why are the players assaulting the place if they don't know what's going on there? At this sort of level, they should have been using divinations to work out what the problem is, or at least making an effort to interrogate their foes.

Unfortunately, here it's the spell, which is tied to a specific location in space. Anyway, it's not her actions I'm worried about right now, it's the actions of her followers, most of whom are either fanatacs or compelled to act as such. Under ordinary circumstances I agree that everyone should leave.

As for divinations, I agree, but the group isn't really big on them. Thus far, though, they've traveled as fast as possible, pretty much, so it would be unfair to have the spell succeed before they could reasonably have possibly foiled it.

Now, if they want to wait a few days healing up, then all bets are off.

 

[andargor]

So here's the key. With scrying of some sort likely to work eventually, can they manifest a MMM inside of a dimensional lock/forbiddance and, if so, can they enter/exit it? I guess it depends on how you view the extradimensional subspace. If it is merely an offshoot of the plane, then it would think it would work, but the definition of demiplanes you posted earlier would seem ti imply that it is separate, in which case it should not work.

So, is there some concrete ruling about this (which I guess includes whether or not a bag of holding could be used within a forbiddance as well), or is it just fodder for a very specific poll?

Forbiddance prevents extradimensional travel. That is very unambiguous. They can cast the Mansion, and it will work. However, they will not be able to go through the portal to get inside it.

If they are already inside when the Forbiddance is cast, they will have to choose another way to get back to the Material Plane other than the Mansion's portal.

This would be a very solid ruling per the RAW.

Andargor

 

[Herpes Cineplex]

So, is there some concrete ruling about this (which I guess includes whether or not a bag of holding could be used within a forbiddance as well), or is it just fodder for a very specific poll?

There seems to be no concrete ruling, so I think it's down to a poll. Or your own best judgement.

You can guess which one of those options I'd recommend; it's your game, you know the situation and the characters involved, and you're the one who'll have to listen to the whining if you tell the sorceror that she can't put up a Mansion within the forbiddance area.

Or more likely, you're the one who'll have to listen to them describing how they exit the forbiddance area after each major fight so they can put up a Mansion and rest.

As for me, I'd say that bags of holding and portable holes and the like work normally. An Amulet of the Planes wouldn't. And I'd probably just let the Mansion work within the forbiddance area, because it's easy.

But hey, here's an additional complication to ponder: the text for Forbiddance says that it seals the area against all planar travel into it, but says nothing about planar travel out of the area. If you read that very literally, you could say that forbiddance just keeps you from getting in, but once you're in, you can use anything you want to get out.

--
if you were a rat bastard, you'd use this to seal them in their mansion forever

 

[htetickrt]

But hey, here's an additional complication to ponder: the text for Forbiddance says that it seals the area against all planar travel into it, but says nothing about planar travel out of the area. If you read that very literally, you could say that forbiddance just keeps you from getting in, but once you're in, you can use anything you want to get out.

I think this is the way to go, though I will allow the sorcerer a spellcraft roll for her to realize this earlier.

Thanks for all the help, everyone!

 

[andargor]

There seems to be no concrete ruling, so I think it's down to a poll. Or your own best judgement.

I still think that the rules are clear on this.

You can guess which one of those options I'd recommend; it's your game, you know the situation and the characters involved, and you're the one who'll have to listen to the whining if you tell the sorceror that she can't put up a Mansion within the forbiddance area.

She can put up the Mansion all she wants, but the party will not be able to enter it.

As for me, I'd say that bags of holding and portable holes and the like work normally. An Amulet of the Planes wouldn't. And I'd probably just let the Mansion work within the forbiddance area, because it's easy.

Tough call for the Bag of Holding, since it's a "nondimensional space". But the Portable Hole should not function, since it's an extradimensional space.

But hey, here's an additional complication to ponder: the text for Forbiddance says that it seals the area against all planar travel into it, but says nothing about planar travel out of the area. If you read that very literally, you could say that forbiddance just keeps you from getting in, but once you're in, you can use anything you want to get out.

You can't get in or out of an extradimensional space in a Forbiddance area.

Forbiddance seals an area against all planar travel into or within it.

To enter the Mansion you have to "travel within" the Forbiddance.

Andargor

 

[Thanee]

So, what do you think about the part in the MMM description, that creatures not designated during the casting cannot enter the mansion, and that the mansion cannot be entered other than through the special portal.

Doesn't that rule out planar travel?

Only those you designate may enter the mansion, and the portal is shut and made invisible behind you when you enter.


...



Since the place can be entered only through its special portal, ...

Bye
Thanee

 

[andargor]

So, what do you think about the part in the MMM description, that creatures not designated during the casting cannot enter the mansion, and that the mansion cannot be entered other than through the special portal.

Doesn't that rule out planar travel?

Bye
Thanee

That's the part I didn't comment on too much in my last post, as the exact nature of the Mansion is not clear by the spells description.

What's clear:

• It's an extradimensional space
• A portal is necessary to access it (and hence represents extradimensional travel which can be blocked with Dimensional Lock and Forbiddance)
• Only designated creatures can enter the portal

What's less clear:

• Is it a temporary demiplane?
• Does the phrase "Since the place can be entered only through its special portal" imply that planar travel to the Mansion is impossible?

I'm comfortable with my assertions for the first part, but for the second part I can only give my opinion according to the RAW. Much depends on the cosmology designed by the DM.

And my opinion is that it is a temporary demiplane (according to the Planes section description of a demiplane), and the specific phrase (which fully reads "Since the place can be entered only through its special portal, outside conditions do not affect the mansion, nor do conditions inside it pass to the plane beyond") is intended to prevent spell effects, such as Fireball, from spilling into the Mansion through the portal.

IMHO, all this does not prevent spells that cross Planes from functioning within or into the Mansion, if the location of the demiplane is known (such as Scrying or Plane Shift). And I base my opinion on the description of Genesis, which like many 9th level spells is the most powerful of the "series" (like Alter Self -> Polymorph etc. -> Shapechange), and which describes in more detail the fact that there is a portal and that it is a true permanent demiplane.

In the demiplane description, "limited access" is mentionned but not explained anywhere. I personally would allow travel by other means than the Mansion's portal (since that is clearly defined as being limited access), but a DM could rule that it is a special demiplane and that only Divine creatures may use planar travel to reach it.

My 0.02 cp.

Andargor

 

[Tzarevitch]

Go the the Manual of the Planes. A rogue with the Gatecrasher prestige class can probably force open the portal into the pocket dimension where the mansion is located. If a Gatecrasher can force open divinely-sealed portals he certainly can force open the door to a magnificent mansion created by a mere mortal spellcaster.

The other option is that a fighter with the Planar Champion prestige class could simply rip his way into the mansion and the tear would stay open for a few rounds allowing him to lead a a strike force into the mansion. If I remember correctly, the fighter has to be around 11th level or so to do this trick however. The rogue however can get access to the Gatecrasher ability at lower levels.

Tzarevitch

 

[Saeviomagy]

Unfortunately, here it's the spell, which is tied to a specific location in space. Anyway, it's not her actions I'm worried about right now, it's the actions of her followers, most of whom are either fanatacs or compelled to act as such. Under ordinary circumstances I agree that everyone should leave.

Now, if they want to wait a few days healing up, then all bets are off.

Then I guess they'll have to fight smarter. They know that (basically) every fight they'll have a reprieve of 8 hours. Work out something they can do in 8 hours to make the PC's back off.

Stoneshaping the place so there's no entrance to the ritual site would be a good one.