How strong are you BBEGs?

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

Wouldn't such characters be high level anyway? It takes a lot of levels to be really good at things like Bluff, Diplomacy and Intimidation.

Maybe it's just because I'm used to d20 Modern BBEGs who are often high level Smart/Charismatic characters. They have little combat capability, but they're still capable people.

Sometimes, but not always.

The King could be King just because his father was...and all he's ever done is sit on the throne and rule. But he has hundreds of subjects, a great deal of Knights, and who knows what else at his fingertips.

And he could just be 5th level and still drive the PCs, especially if killing him would cause more problems to the region and the PCs care about that kind of thing.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Sometimes, but not always.

The King could be King just because his father was...and all he's ever done is sit on the throne and rule. But he has hundreds of subjects, a great deal of Knights, and who knows what else at his fingertips.

And he could just be 5th level and still drive the PCs, especially if killing him would cause more problems to the region and the PCs care about that kind of thing.

If the king only got his position due to birth (admittedly very common among royals), then he's not a BBEG. He might be a villain, he might oppose the PCs, and they can't kill him for a variety of reasons, but he's not a BBEG. The first B doesn't match. The real BBEG might be a servant (eg his spymaster, general, chancellor, etc).

If, in addition to birth, he's also a genius, or a great warlord, or a powerful spellcaster, or some such, then he could be a BBEG. (Being a king doesn't disqualify someone from being a BBEG.)

 

[EricNoah]

About 4 levels higher here. I want my BBEG to stick around a few rounds, get a chance to monologue, get a chance to do his schtick a couple of times, before he gets beaten senseless.

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

If the king only got his position due to birth (admittedly very common among royals), then he's not a BBEG. He might be a villain, he might oppose the PCs, and they can't kill him for a variety of reasons, but he's not a BBEG. The first B doesn't match. The real BBEG might be a servant (eg his spymaster, general, chancellor, etc).

If, in addition to birth, he's also a genius, or a great warlord, or a powerful spellcaster, or some such, then he could be a BBEG. (Being a king doesn't disqualify someone from being a BBEG.)

Bah. He could easily be the BBEG.

Say he's ordering his mages to raise an army of undead to protect the kingdom. Or having local villages pillaged for whatever reason. In the end, the direct problem is because of HIM, not any advisors or anything like that(an overplayed trick, IMO). But you kill him, and you cause more problems in the region(more corrupt people in line).

But he doesn't have to be something amazing just to be the BBEG of the campaign. If he's providing the major opposition to the PCs, I'd say that qualifies enough. And since the first B in BBEG stands for 'Big'(depending on who you ask, at least), then the leader of an entire kingdom with a huge amount of power IS big. Its just a bit of a twist on what is usually expected.

 

[Odhanan]

Around APL+4. Sometimes more.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Bah. He could easily be the BBEG.

Say he's ordering his mages to raise an army of undead to protect the kingdom. Or having local villages pillaged for whatever reason. In the end, the direct problem is because of HIM, not any advisors or anything like that(an overplayed trick, IMO).

But based on real life. I'm a big fan of history, so I read about all these puppet kings. It's very rare for a dynasty to have "real kings" for long; three generations in and the dynasty has already decayed. Pretty soon they have to turn to advisors.

And I have to wonder, if that king dies, wouldn't his son take over? And couldn't he be just as bad?

But you kill him, and you cause more problems in the region(more corrupt people in line).

Possibly people more deserving of the title of BBEG. (And no, the PCs don't have to kill him to oppose him or his servants. It's not necessary to kill the bad guy leader, BBEG or whoever.)

But he doesn't have to be something amazing just to be the BBEG of the campaign. If he's providing the major opposition to the PCs, I'd say that qualifies enough. And since the first B in BBEG stands for 'Big'(depending on who you ask, at least), then the leader of an entire kingdom with a huge amount of power IS big. Its just a bit of a twist on what is usually expected.

I think we just disagree on who counts as "the source of the opposition". I think it takes more than just saying "do this" to be a BBEG. I think they need to take some kind of active role, even if it doesn't involve combat or direct contact with the PCs.

But since we're talking fantasy, and not real life, does anyone have examples from fantasy novels? [sblock]The only one that's coming to mind right now is A Song of Ice and Fire. Kings like Balon Greyjoy, despite being villainous kings, just didn't seem worthy of the title of BBEG. He ordered pirate raids, but he kept getting his butt whooped. His brothers Euron and Victarion are more deserving of the title. When Balon died, his brothers kept going, regardless of who was the next king, even though they were also sharpening their knives for each others' backs ^^.

Or the Tyrells. Mace Tyrell is their leader, but he's just an oaf, without even charisma to his name. The real "BBEG" on his side is his mother, Olenna, "the Queen of Thorns". (It's arguable if she's a villain, though, but she deserves the title of leader far more than her son does.)[/sblock]

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

I think we just disagree on who counts as "the source of the opposition". I think it takes more than just saying "do this" to be a BBEG. I think they need to take some kind of active role, even if it doesn't involve combat or direct contact with the PCs.

Actualy, I think we DO agree on the important parts.

Part of the problem on my end is I'm being purposefully vague since its just throwing out a hypothetical situation. There are so many things that a BBEG can do, especially if he's the leader of an entire kingdom.

But say the whole "King ordering an army of undead to protect his kingdom" is being done. Course that's going to anger people so its not hard to expect PCs will try to stop that. So you take out the mages or clerics or whoever's raising them...but the King's still alive. So he just sends some assassins or something to deal with the PCs and gets more mages/clerics/spellcasters to go back to the job.

Even though he's basically just spouting orders, stopping the people he's giving orders to isn't going to do any good. So some confrontation with him would be necessary, though it would likely not take a traditional, expected form.

Basically just saying that there are many, many ways to do BBEGs lower level than the PCs. Sometimes it can really throw the players off when they're confronted with it, as they usually can't solve such a situation through just killing them like a 'normal' BBEG.

 

[Doug McCrae]

Sometimes it can really throw the players off when they're confronted with it, as they usually can't solve such a situation through just killing them like a 'normal' BBEG.

This is D&D. There's no problem that can't be solved by killing. Why couldn't you resolve the problem by killing the king? He seems to be the source of the policy.

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

This is D&D. There's no problem that can't be solved by killing. Why couldn't you resolve the problem by killing the king? He seems to be the source of the policy.

Off the top of my head...

Maybe the king is magically connected to the kingdom itself. Kill him, kill the land and/or the people there. Or just another, wose(and more powerful) person is next in line. Or maybe the king is connected to a powerful church and killing him means that the PCs get on the church's bad side.

Or any number of reasons. Honestly, some of the most fun games I've seen are when killing, while an option, isn't the best one to take and the PCs have to step back and think about what else can be done.

 

[Bloodstone Press]

some of the most fun games I've seen are when killing, while an option, isn't the best one to take and the PCs have to step back and think about what else can be done.

I agree. In fact, the only way I can stand playing high level games is to cut the combat down to a minimum and create situations where killing isn't the best option. Otherwise, I spend all my time creating stat blocks.