How to balance a master-and-apprentice dynamic?

[Blue Orange]

Does "mechanically balance" mean "make equal in combat?" As long as the master isn't a master (warrior), this isn't a problem. The master underwater basket weaver probably won't do a lot of outshining in combat.

If the apprentice is training to be the exact same PC as the master, then yes, it sucks to be the master-but-worse. But I think someone mentioned upthread that the master might have age working against her, or worse, debt! The age penalty could be memory, sight, reflexes, even appearance related.

Seconded the age thing. This isn't really covered in standard D&D rules but is a big reason masters did take on apprentices--you get old and just can't do as much physical stuff anymore. Especially with nonphysical things, the apprentice has better physical traits and skills, the master has better mental traits and skills (knowledge-based), they may be less quick to learn new things.

 

[Voadam]

I've generally gone the wholly narrative route.

My 5e paladin knight lord took on another 5e PC paladin/sorcerer as his squire. Mechanically equivalent balanced in combat power.

Just have to be careful about the social power dynamic of that kind of relationship and not be a jerk about it.

I think Star Wars is a decent example here again.

Master Qui Gon is young padawan Obi Wan's master, but they generally fight together competently as a team and Qui Gon dies against Darth Maul while padawan Obi Wan beats Maul in a one-on-one fight.

Mechanically having a master be a 4e warlord leader type giving advice and bonuses to the apprentice could work well too. This puts the emphasis on the master as teacher role, not on the master as superior.

 

[Umbran]

Of course the real question is whether there needs to be any difference at all. In Star Wars specifically, the Padawans seem just as capable as their master in virtually every way, but for the sake of the exercise, how would you balance experience vs youth?

Well, if we look carefully, we see that depends on the age of the padawan.

But to use Star Wars as an example...Obi Wan is not exactly "more powerful" then Luke Skywalker the Chosen One. Obi is old and "can't" do as much as he once did.

I dunno if this really counts, as Obi Wan is Luke's master for a day or two before he gets cut down. Same with Yoda - he gets a short training montage, and then Yoda fades away.

Gandalf in LotR is another great example. Gamdaf could save the world in a second...but pretends to be a old man wizard that can only cast a spell to light a candle.

Gandalf is not in a master-apprentice relationship with anyone. He's not even a mentor. He's just an older advisor, and probably shouldn't be modeled as a PC in any event.

Master Qui Gon is young padawan Obi Wan's master

Obi Wan is not all that young there - he's on the verge of becoming a Knight himself, as the Council promotes him right after that fight with Maul.

This, as compared to when we first see Ashoka Tano in The Clone Wars, or Ezra Bridger in Rebels, who are much younger than Obi Wan as we saw him. At the start of their series, they are much less potent than Anakin and Kanan, respectively. It is only over time they grow to be able to fight side-by-side with their masters and expect to survive.

 

[Tonguez]

Well, if we look carefully, we see that depends on the age of the padawan.



I dunno if this really counts, as Obi Wan is Luke's master for a day or two before he gets cut down. Same with Yoda - he gets a short training montage, and then Yoda fades away.



Gandalf is not in a master-apprentice relationship with anyone. He's not even a mentor. He's just an older advisor, and probably shouldn't be modeled as a PC in any event.



Obi Wan is not all that young there - he's on the verge of becoming a Knight himself, as the Council promotes him right after that fight with Maul.

This, as compared to when we first see Ashoka Tano in The Clone Wars, or Ezra Bridger in Rebels, who are much younger than Obi Wan as we saw him. At the start of their series, they are much less potent than Anakin and Kanan, respectively. It is only over time they grow to be able to fight side-by-side with their masters and expect to survive.

Thats probably a good point to make in terms of Apprenticeship grades - especially when it comes to an Adventurer as Mentor. You really shouldnt be taking your young novice apprenticeships into the field with you, you should wait until they are "Journeyman" before they can tag along as competent practitioners in their own right.
The Master-Journeyman relationship is thus one of more experienced in adventuring rather than disparity of skills

 

[Umbran]

The Master-Journeyman relationship is thus one of more experienced in adventuring rather than disparity of skills

And, we can note that we see Jedi taking their apprentices out during times of war or great conflict - they don't have a lot of choice, as they need all hands on deck. And then, it is in the context of a larger organization that has strict codes of behavior. This relationship as a tradition that they watch over. The master will be judged by how they treat their apprentices, and how well their apprentices learn.

So, it isn't just one PC having power over the other. There are restrictions and expectations. Even when the Order is no longer there to judge, Kanan is trying hard to live up to those expectations with his apprentice.

Another element to managing the master-apprentice relationship will be in adventure and encounter design. Scenarios that call for multiple points of focus, such that the master can't actually do everything themselves, are called for.

 

[Voadam]

Obi Wan is not all that young there - he's on the verge of becoming a Knight himself, as the Council promotes him right after that fight with Maul.

He's not a child but he is an apprentice relationship and adventuring and fighting alongside Qui Gon through the whole film until Qui Gon's death near the end and Obi Wan wins the fight and levels up.

Ewan McGregor while not a child looks pretty young as a padawan in episode I

This, as compared to when we first see Ashoka Tano in The Clone Wars, or Ezra Bridger in Rebels, who are much younger than Obi Wan as we saw him. At the start of their series, they are much less potent than Anakin and Kanan, respectively. It is only over time they grow to be able to fight side-by-side with their masters and expect to survive.

As compared with Obi Wan and Anakin throughout the whole Attack of the Clones movie where Anakin is a padawan the whole time and fights alongside Obi Wan in much of it right from the beginning.

If you want a master apprentice relationship between roughly combat equal PCs in an adventuring RPG then Star Wars can provide a decent model for two roughly equal combatants working together.

So can most any media involving violence with a rookie coming on board with a mentor senior direct leader/partner who work as a team. Cops, soldiers, superhero, etc.

 

[Umbran]

Ewan McGregor while not a child looks pretty young as a padawan in episode I

Obi Wan Kenobi is canonically 25 years old in The Phantom Menace.

Ahsoka Tano and Ezra Bridger are 14 when their respective shows start.

 

[TiQuinn]

Of course the real question is whether there needs to be any difference at all. In Star Wars specifically, the Padawans seem just as capable as their master in virtually every way, but for the sake of the exercise, how would you balance experience vs youth?

I would probably give the master some sort of charisma check bonus/advantage in dealing with NPCs related to their order and call it a day. As others have mentioned with Star Wars, the difference between the two are usually not based on skill. There are plenty of instances of the master and the apprentice being of equal ability with the master falling in combat where the apprentice succeeds (Star Wars), or if the story demands, the apprentice overreaches and the master shows him the error of overconfidence (Also Star Wars).

You could do something cool in a game a la the new Daggerheart rules where the Master has the ability to die in a blaze of glory, and give extra powers/bonuses to the apprentice as a result, but obviously it’s a one time thing, and suitable for a more narrative style game. That’d be kinda cool.

 

[Umbran]

There are plenty of instances of the master and the apprentice being of equal ability with the master falling in combat where the apprentice succeeds (Star Wars)...

Folks, you seem to deciding that falling sooner is somehow indicative of overall power, and seem be missing something obvious here. It isn't about overall power - it is about tactical choices!

You are in a fight. You are generally a decent person, and are responsible for the well-being of your apprentice. So, in that fight, you spend resources to protect that apprentice!

In the fight with Maul, it isn't necessarily that Obi Wan is better than Qui Gon. In our game terms, Qui Gon simply spends his force points faster. This forces Maul to do likewise. Qui Gon is killed, and Obi Wan is left fighting against a Maul who is mostly tapped out, while Obi Wan still has gas in the tank, so to speak.

 

[TiQuinn]

Folks, you seem to deciding that falling sooner is somehow indicative of overall power, and seem be missing something obvious here. It isn't about overall power - it is about tactical choices!

I’m saying using power as a difference is probably not the way to go.