How to balance a master-and-apprentice dynamic?

[Laurefindel]

A master and their apprentice is a common trope in fiction, and what is common in fiction, we often try do recreate in RPG. The new Star Wars show reignited this desire of mine to make the master/apprentice dynamic work in a TTRPG game.

By definition, a master has more experience than an apprentice. In RPG, experience is a (usually) a tangible thing and it (usually) relates to being « better ». Thus, logically, a master PC should be better than an apprentice PC, but it isn’t fun to play a worse character. Some game groups are fine with variation of experience between PC, and some RPG have more range between « low level » PC and « high level PC », but I prefer equitable games. Equitable does not mean « the same » however, so the question I’m asking is: what could a younger, less experienced character have to mechanically balance a more experienced one?

Of course the real question is whether there needs to be any difference at all. In Star Wars specifically, the Padawans seem just as capable as their master in virtually every way, but for the sake of the exercise, how would you balance experience vs youth?

Obviously different systems would yield different propositions, but I’m open to pretty much everything.

 

[MGibster]

In the last Star Wars game I was a player in my character was Commander Oberon Gygax, leader of a small, ragtag Rebel group and the other PCs were under his command. Generally speaking, Gygax only issued orders to PCs to do things they were already inclined to do without being overly specific on how they should accomplish any given task. Gygax would also confer with his subordinates about the best course of action and most often when with their suggestions which avoided having the other players feel as though they had no agency.

 

[bloodtide]

Well master and apprentice is a big power disbalance.

But to use Star Wars as an example...Obi Wan is not exactly "more powerful" then Luke Skywalker the Chosen One. Obi is old and "can't" do as much as he once did.

Gandalf in LotR is another great example. Gamdaf could save the world in a second...but pretends to be a old man wizard that can only cast a spell to light a candle.

You could have the master be under a cruse or something similar.

You could make the 'apprentice" the all powerful Chosen One. The Matrix does this with Neo

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Both Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Monster of the Week (which lets one nicely emulate Buffy) deal with this by giving the non-powered characters more plot points to affect game play in a way that doesn't involve them being more powerful in-universe.

Many game systems nowadays have something similar, although you'd probably have to figure out how much of the bonus currency to give out to the weaker character to make it work for your table.

 

[Tonguez]

Mentors Guidance Feat
You can spend time each day instructing your apprentice. After a long rest, choose one skill or tool proficiency that you are proficient in. Your apprentice gains proficiency in that skill or tool until the next long rest.

• Teaching Moments: Once per long rest, when your apprentice is within 30 feet of you and can see or hear you, you can use your reaction to grant them advantage on an ability check, attack roll, or saving throw.

Apprentice gets
Aid Mentor: As a bonus action, the apprentice can assist their mentor, granting them advantage on their next attack roll, ability check, or saving throw within the next minute. The apprentice can use this ability a number of times equal to their proficiency bonus per long rest.

 

[W'rkncacnter]

a5e has some rules for characters leaving retirement. you could, theoretically, make the master the same approximate power level as the apprentice and then use rules in that sort of vein to represent the additional experience of the master.

 

[overgeeked]

The Doctor Who RPG has to deal with this problem on steroids. It uses that already mentioned metacurrency. The Doctor starts with fewer. The companion starts with more. That’s it. There’s no cap on how many story points you can get. So in no time the Doctor has just as many story points as the companion and has the stat block of a 20th-level rogue, 20th-level artificer, and 20th-level bard who’s dragging around a lump on a 1st-level PC as their “equal.” It’s not a setup I’m fond of, if you couldn’t tell. For much the same reason you mention. It sucks playing a mechanically terrible character when there’s a mechanical superhero standing next to you.

 

[aco175]

I played a D&D game where we all started as apprentices, or one PC was the apprentice and the rest there to help him on the quest. The master was more a quest-giver and only shoed up between quests. Maybe not quite the same as the thread seems to be going though

When my son was first starting out playing I had a NPC 'squire' tag along with his fighter/knight PC as a kind of apprentice. They were the same level, but as a henchman, the NPC just followed his lead and could heal a little. They both gained level, but in different skills or classes so they ended up with different powers. There was still a master/apprentice mechanic, but more of a lord/peasant relationship.

Back in 2e days we had a campaign last a while and the PCs gained followers and henchmen that struck out on their own missions and eventually gained followers of their own after a while. They did start off as adventuring with the master a few times before we started having them go on their own missions. I recall it being satisfying to have played the master, then apprentice who became a master to new apprentices.

 

[GMMichael]

what could a younger, less experienced character have to mechanically balance a more experienced one?

Of course the real question is whether there needs to be any difference at all. In Star Wars specifically, the Padawans seem just as capable as their master in virtually every way, but for the sake of the exercise, how would you balance experience vs youth?

Does "mechanically balance" mean "make equal in combat?" As long as the master isn't a master (warrior), this isn't a problem. The master underwater basket weaver probably won't do a lot of outshining in combat.

If the apprentice is training to be the exact same PC as the master, then yes, it sucks to be the master-but-worse. But I think someone mentioned upthread that the master might have age working against her, or worse, debt! The age penalty could be memory, sight, reflexes, even appearance related.

Realistically, the two PCs actually have some differences between them, so there's no balancing to be done, because why should the apple be better than the orange? For perspective, in Modos 2 you might have a master swordsman with 4 skill points ( "master" rank) in the Armed skill, at level 4. The apprentice character, also level 4, has an Amateur level of skill points in Armed, just 1, but three other points to distribute, let's say in Craftsman (basket weaving) and two in Movement (for swimming). The apprentice aspires to someday also have 4 skill points in Armed.

 

[payn]

In a narrative like game it could be reflected in playbook moves like in PbtA. I like the idea of a master being more knowledgeable and wise, but an apprentice being a little more agile and sturdy.

With BA, I think you could get away with a few level separation between apprentice and master in 5E. Maybe even a feat that gives certain bonuses/penalties in certain situations the two can take? Very difficult to do in PF2 though. My thoughts are something like an archetype where apprentice and master get a +/-1 when not in each others company. Would have to really play it out mechanically becasue the system is pretty unforgiving of imbalances in PCs.

In Traveller, it would work out pretty easy via chargen. The apprentice would be several careers shorter of the master. Its even likely the master will have less physical stats and higher mental ones to reflect it naturally in the system with the ageing.

The Dr Who RPG im pretty sure had some big differences in timelords vs. ordinary humans and aliens. I dont recall how it comes out in the wash. (obviously, not the 5E port)

So, ultimately its going to be one part mechanics, and one part narrative based on which system you are using.