How to describe Strider's combat on Weathertop

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

I would disagree. Even if the Noldor all have straight 18's and a few extra abilities, they will still die like 1st level characters when they are 1st level. Is that the feel you want?

In the 3rd Age, a 1st level Noldor is an impossibility. So what would they be like? Who knows?

Being physically and spiritually "more" is best described as having a higher level in D&D. That is half the point of the level system. Piles of skills seem perfectly appropriate in my mind; Noldor are skilled and wise and learned in most everything they do.

As you say, a 1st level Noldor isn't possible at that time, and your average Noldor should have a higher level than your average anything else. But the Noldor are physically and spiritually greater because they were created that way, not because they've been experiencing life for longer. Even the youngest of the Elves were considered more graceful and powerful than humans, dwarves, etc. The races didn't start on an even playing field. As the Colonel pointed out, they didn't start on the same field, or even playing the same game.

EDIT:
Also, level means more experience. You become better at what you do (wizards get more and better spells, fighters get more and better attacks, etc). Greater spirituality and superior physiology are not a result of increased level.

 

[Wicht]

In the 3rd Age, a 1st level Noldor is an impossibility.

I have to agree. Noldor by definition are all very old and very powerful by the time the third age rolls around. Trying to make them potentially weaker for the sake of something as fleeting as game balance would ruin the whole feel of what it means to be Noldor.

Now if you wanted rules for game balanced Noldor in an earlier time that would be different. AFAIAC PC Noldors in the 3rd age would be a mistake.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

I have to agree. Noldor by definition are all very old and very powerful by the time the third age rolls around. Trying to make them potentially weaker for the sake of something as fleeting as game balance would ruin the whole feel of what it means to be Noldor.

Now if you wanted rules for game balanced Noldor in an earlier time that would be different. AFAIAC PC Noldors in the 3rd age would be a mistake.

To be honest, I feel the same way. The only way to do it is to have a party made up of peers, or nearly so. Say, Glorfindel, Aragorn, Imrahil, and Elladan and Elrohir. But then, you're talking about some pretty high-level adventuring.

Another good point you make is that the Noldor of the Third and Fourth Age are all going to be several centuries, if not millennia, old. This means they all will likely be of high level (the one in Middle Earth). But, to touch on what was discussed above, that doesn't mean Noldor didn't start out with a lot of inherent advantages. All this combined makes them an unbalanced, and unbalancing, choice for a PC race. I suppose you could do use them as PCs in a First or Second Age campaign, but they'd still be relatively powerful, even at first level.

Stick with the Silvan Elves.

 

[Wicht]

But, to touch on what was discussed above, that doesn't mean Noldor didn't start out with a lot of inherent advantages.

Actually, I would go with the template for Noldor and others who have been in the blessed realm. Perhaps just call it "Blessed."
I would argue that not all Noldor started out more powerful. Before they journeyed into the west, they were identical to all other elves, race wise. But their stay in that land is what made them special. Nor, I believe, did they pass on their special abilities to their offspring after leaving that realm. Therefore they are not inherently superior, it was experience with the divine (if you will allow that phrase) that so touched them as to make them better.

Thus if you had a template, you could roleplay an elf that journeyed to the blessed realm (perhaps at the dawn of time) and then left that land to return to middle earth. The template could also be applied to any exceptional humans (or even hobbits and dwarves) that somehow made the journey and returned.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

... Even the youngest of the Elves were considered more graceful and powerful than humans, dwarves, etc. The races didn't start on an even playing field. As the Colonel pointed out, they didn't start on the same field, or even playing the same game.

EDIT:
Also, level means more experience. You become better at what you do (wizards get more and better spells, fighters get more and better attacks, etc). Greater spirituality and superior physiology are not a result of increased level.

Experience is not the same thing as Experience Points. IMHO xp represent an intrisic potential to affect the world in a mystical way. One normally earns xp from successful experiences. One normally "spends" xp levelling up, freezing the xp into improved skills, HP, and saves.

Consider what it means to spend xp making a magic item or casting a Wish. You are not forgetting experiences when you do so. You are purposefully draining your spirit of stored potential.

I do not find anything illogical about all Noldor having been born with 10,000 xp. They can spend these xp levelling up as they grow into adolescence and acquire interests. To the eye of a normal human, these elves would be borne with astounding natural abilties.

 

[barsoomcore]

the filmmaking technique -- lots of close-up shots with aggressive editing -- leads to a choppy scene.

I think you could argue that Jackson wanted exactly that -- choppy, confusing scenes where you're not really sure what's going on. Compare the Weathertop fight, or Aragorn's initial fight with the Uruk-hai, with the Cave Troll battle -- the former are confusing and it's impossible to tell who's where doing what, but when the Cave Troll bursts in and starts laying the smackdown, the action moves with total clarity up to Legolas leaping off its back, at which point things get frenetic again -- I think the choppiness is a deliberate choice.

Jackson's not making a Jackie Chan film, nor even an Errol Flynn movie. He doesn't always want you to clearly comprehend what you're seeing. He doesn't want to impress you with what a great swordsman Aragorn is.

That said, maybe you just don't like choppy fight scenes and that's totally fine.

If you want to see the greatest swordfight scene of recent memory, rent Taboo by Nagisa Oshima. The opening fight sequence has to rank as one of the greatest (if not the greatest) pure swordfights ever filmed -- truly. The movie itself is so-so but that first fight... Oh boy. No special effects, no slow motion, not even incredibly cool moves -- just two masters with swords going at each other.

 

[Sulimo]

I have to agree. Noldor by definition are all very old and very powerful by the time the third age rolls around. Trying to make them potentially weaker for the sake of something as fleeting as game balance would ruin the whole feel of what it means to be Noldor.

I'm not sure I'd agree. A child of two Noldor living in Lindon is possible...at least in the earlier part of the Third Age. I dont know how many Noldor were left in Lindon by the time of the War of the Ring.

 

[Sulimo]

I think you could argue that Jackson wanted exactly that -- choppy, confusing scenes where you're not really sure what's going on.

Yep. My impression was that Peter was trying to show the chaos of battle much like Ridley Scott did in Black Hawk Down.

 

[Wicht]

I'm not sure I'd agree. A child of two Noldor living in Lindon is possible...at least in the earlier part of the Third Age. I dont know how many Noldor were left in Lindon by the time of the War of the Ring.

No elf was born powerful. What made certain elves like Glorfindel and Galadriel powerful was not just bloodline. it was their age but it was also and more importantly their experience in the Blessed Land. They had dwelt in the light of the blessed trees and beheld the glory of the silmarils. They had become something more than physical. Their spiritual strength had grown. But when they elves journeyed from that land, their offspring was little different than the offspring of other elves. Consider the daughter and granddaughter (Arwen) of Galadriel. There is nothing to indicate they shared their mother's strength or powers. They had never seen the blessed realm nor beheld the face of Elbereth. They were no more powerful than Legolas though they shared a more noble lineage.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Nor, I believe, did they pass on their special abilities to their offspring after leaving that realm. Therefore they are not inherently superior, it was experience with the divine (if you will allow that phrase) that so touched them as to make them better.

I don't know about that. Galadriel was the mother of Celebrian, and while we know little about her, we do know she married Elrond and had a child - Arwen. Arwen apparently inherited something from her mother's side of the family. You could say it was just looks, but it seemed more than that.

Also, a lot of powerful Noldor were born in Middle Earth - or at least it certainly seems that they were born in Middle Earth. Celebrimbor and Gil-Galad are perhaps the best examples. I always assumed they were born in Middle Earth; I don't recall anything that refutes that. The Sindar are another reason I think this way. While not as powerful as the Noldor, they
were more powerful than the Silvan Elves, were born in Middle Earth, and passed on their attributes - examples are Thranduil and Legolas. But, it's not entirely clear, so I guess it could be interpreted different ways.

I'd say a good way of handling it would be that the Noldor who actually lived in the Blessed Realm at one time would have a template, much like the half-celestial template. Ones born in Middle Earth, while not quite as powerful, would still have greater ability scores than other Elves.