How to describe Strider's combat on Weathertop

[Edena_of_Neith]

My attempt to extrapolate the Battle of Weathertop to 3rd Edition D&D

I am new to 3rd edition but I am not new to Tolkien.
I'll give my best opinion on a literal translation of the combat on Weathertop.

The Ringwraiths were Epic Level characters beyond a doubt.
These were great lords of the race of Man back in the Second Age.
They have had thousands of years to hone their skills since that time.

I would place the Lord of the Ringwraiths as a 40th level character, or even higher.
About half of that as a wizard (necromancer), and half as a fighter.
He is carrying a + 5 (or better) bastard sword, and a + 3 (perhaps better) dagger.
Both of these weapons are enchanted with death magic: being struck by them invites a fortitude save to avoid instant death.

The other Ringwraiths are in the 30th to 40th level category.
Their primary levels are in fighter.
All of them carry magical weapons imbued with the same kind of death magic - their death magic is less powerful than that carried by their Lord.

All of the Ringwraiths have Damage Reduction unknown / + 1.
All of the Ringwraiths radiate Fear. This Fear is not strong during the day, but requires a Will Save against it at night - if the Ringwraith is uncloaked (that is, is wearing nothing) his fear is much stronger yet, and the Will Save is at a serious penalty.
All of the Ringwraiths have a touch attack that requires a Fortitude Save. Failure to make this save means the person struck is incapacitated, and will soon fall into a coma, and die from the Black Breath.

Striking a Ringwraith with a weapon of ANY sort requires a Fortitude save, and failure to make that save means incapacitation, then coma, and finally death.

The Ringwraiths are vulnerable to fire, and if set alight without actually being struck (as in a torch alighting one of their cloaks without actually striking their undead flesh) does not require any Fortitude save on the attacker's part.
Fire does triple damage against these monsters (the same applies to magical fire and dragon's breath.)

The Ringwraiths are vulnerable to certain words, in which a Holy essence is imbued, and this essence is deadly to them.
The name of Elbereth (Varya) is one such word.
The effect of such a word spoken in their presence is to cause serious damage (5 - 50 hit points of damage, Fortitude Save for half), fear (Will Save or flee), and blinding pain (Will Save or incapacitated for 2 - 12 rounds.)

The Ringwraiths do not perceive living things as a normal person would - they perceive ghostly shadows amidst the darker shadows of the world around (they also perceive many things invisible to normal people ...)
However, darkness is no hindrance to the Ringwraiths - as they do not see in the world of light, they are not hindered by the lack of it.
And the Ringwraiths are quite adept at spotting the shadows of living beings (effectively, an incredibly high rank in the Spot skill), even at great distances.

- - -

Frodo could be considered the equivalent of a 2nd level character, by the time he reached Weathertop.
This could be as a fighter, rogue, or even ranger, depending on one's interpretation of him.

Sam and Merry are likewise 2nd level characters - either fighters, rogues, or rangers.

Pippin is most likely a 1st level character; fighter or rogue.

All are carrying magical daggers forged in Arnor (or perhaps Arthedain or Cardolan).
These are weapons of + 3 enchantment or greater.
However, against the Ringwraiths, these weapons have an additional enchantment - and may well have a total bonus of + 10 against these monsters (after all, they WERE forged against Angmar and it's Witch-King.)

- - -

Aragorn is an Epic Level character, probably at least of 30th level, but perhaps higher.
He has over 100 years of experience in what most would call hard adventuring under his belt, and has travelled most of Middle Earth.
His classes are ranger, rogue, a specialty class or two, and even cleric.

Unfortunately, he is not carrying Anduril, the artifact for which he would later become famous (and yes, I would classify Anduril, or Narsil, as an artifact.)

His saving throws are very high, so the death magic of the Ringwraiths has far less of a chance to affect him - his spirit burns too brightly for the Black Breathe to quell.
His hit points are extremely high, so it will take a lot of blows from the swords of the Ringwraiths to down him.

Aragorn can fight, as all rangers can, with a weapon in either hand - in this particular case, he is wielding a torch in either hand.

- - -

In the Battle of Weathertop, the Ringwraiths magically commanded Frodo to put on the Ring.
The Ring itself also commanded Frodo to put it on.
Frodo had to make two Will saves, one against the Ringwraiths, and one against the Ring. He succeeded against the Ring, but not against the Ringwraiths. He put on the Ring.

Prior to him doing so, the Ringwraiths only saw the shadows of the living, and could ... not ... pinpoint the exact location of the Ring, although they felt it's presence and knew one of the Company had it.
However, once Frodo put the Ring on, the Ringwraiths saw him - and the Ring - as clearly as one would see another person in full daylight.

The Lord of the Ringwraiths struck Frodo down with his Morgul Knife.
Frodo made his Fortitude save, and thus did not perish instantly.
However, the Morgul Knife required a ... second ... save, which Frodo did not make. Thus, a piece of the Knife broke off and remained in the wound.

Frodo struck at his opponent with his blade, but missed, slashing only the cloak.
Frodo, however, shouted out the name of Elbereth.
The Lord of the Ringwraiths made his Will Save and was not driven off in fear, but he failed his Fortitude Save and sustained serious damage. He also failed his Will Save against the pain effect of the utterance, and was left incapacitated by agonizing pain.

Some of the other Ringwraiths failed their Will Saves and were driven away in fear from Frodo's utterance, all suffered damage, and most suffered great pain.

At this point, Aragorn leaped out into the fray with his torches.

The Lord of the Ringwraiths undoubtedly received the business end of those torches, while he was attempting to recover from the shock and pain of Frodo's utterance.
In fact, being incapacitated, he probably could not even defend himself as Aragorn set him on fire. That must not have been very pleasant, being burned alive AND suffering from the aftermath of what was effectively a Holy Word.

Then Frodo disappeared from the sight of the Ringwraiths, as Frodo took off the Ring.
In the confusion of the battle, with 2 other shadowy forms on the ground (where Merry and Pippin had hurled themselves) it is quite likely the Lord of the Ringwraiths and the other Ringwraiths lost track of which shadow was Frodo.

The Lord of the Ringwraiths knew he had delivered the wound to Frodo, and that the Knife-point had broken off.
He had every reason to believe that the Morgul Wound would overcome Frodo quickly - such a wound would normally have taken down a strong Man in a few days: this halfling could not be expected to last more than 1 or 2 days.
When he finally recovered from the utterance of the name Elbereth, he did not care to receive more of the business end of Aragorn's torches - he was already alight, and he recognized the power and danger in this particular Man - and he signalled the retreat.

The other Ringwraiths, seeing their Lord retreating, followed suit.

Aragorn did not pursue, fearing for Frodo, and none of the other hobbits were in any shape to act, having failed their Will saves against fear at the start of the battle.

Frodo, of course, wasn't about to do anything.

That is my extrapolation of the Battle of Weathertop to 3rd Edition Dungeon and Dragons terms.
Is this a reasonable extrapolation?

 

[Bob Aberton]

About the Rumor of the Earth thing:

It *is* concievable that someone with the right training (i.e. a Ranger) could hear the vibrations of horses or a regiment sized group marching in step for a few hundred yards. This would be a Listen check to hear the vibrations, then a Wilderness Lore check to discern what exactly those vibrations heralded.

A third level Ranger could gain the ability to use this ability at, say, a quarter mile. It would increase by a quarter mile every three levels.

Tweak the above system to taste. I agree with those who say Strider's ability wasn't magical. It was the product of long training and sharp ears.

 

[ReignofGeekaos]

Edena....That's way to frigging high. How exactly do you figure the Witch King was a level Forty Character when he was killed by a Sixth Level at Highest Hobbit Rogue, and a Tenth level at the most Female Human Fighter....hell none of the Fellowship are Epic except Gandalf. In all the only Epic creatures in Middle Earth at the time of the Trilogy at most where Gandalf, Galanderia, Elrond, and Souron at most.

The rest of the Fellowship where not epic characters, Aragorn at Most was a 20th Level Ranger/Paladin. At the most.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

I give Epic Levels to the Ringwraiths because they are thousands of years old.
Even before they became Ringwraiths, they were Lords of the race of Man, and probably had fairly decent character levels.

That was before the long, battle-strewn centuries of the Black Years of the Second Age, the great war of the Last Alliance, the Siege and Conquest of Minas Ithil, and the long war against Gondor.

These guys had plenty of time, and plenty of opportunity, to gain character levels.

The Lord of the Ringwraiths had an additional opportunity.
He founded the realm of Angmar in Eriador, and was leader of that Realm for six centuries.
He led Angmar in battle first against Arthedain, then Rivendell, then in all out war against Arthedain and Cardolan, in which Linden, Rivendell, and Lothlorien were pulled in.
He maintained Angmar against all comers until the day came when he was able to whelm the last Dunedain nation, Arthedain.
His nation was ultimately smashed by Gondor, but he himself survived, and shortly thereafter visited a devastating revenge on that nation by taking Minas Ithil.

- - -

I was asked: how would the Battle on Weathertop translate to 3rd Edition Dungeons and Dragons.
I tried to answer that question.

What I did not do, and what I cannot do, is translate the way things worked in Tolkien's books (the system of rules, as it were, that existed in his books) into 3rd edition Dungeons and Dragons.

For example, I would not throw even a 20th level character into battle against Galadriel.
Yet, I cannot point to Galadriel and say: she has x number of levels in this, and y number of powers involving that.
I do, however, know that Galadriel had great power, and even greater power with the Ring of Adamant.

The battle between the Lord of the Ringwraiths, Eowyn, and Merry, I cannot translate into 3rd Edition Dungeons and Dragons terms.

If I tried, the result would be pretty crude:

The Ringwraith strikes at Eowyn, hits, shatters her shield, and almost downs her.
Merry backstabs the Ringwraith - his sword, forged in Arthedain against Angmar, causing a devastating wound to the former Witch-King of Angmar.
Eowyn strikes, effectively making a vorpal strike (sword thrust through throat) against the Ringwraith.
The Ringwraith goes down.

Now, if you use the Critical Hits system they've got in 3rd edition D&D, perhaps a translation could be made ... and as it happens I have not read those rules, and so cannot comment on them, much less use them.

 

[Sulimo]

Edena....That's way to frigging high. How exactly do you figure the Witch King was a level Forty Character when he was killed by a Sixth Level at Highest Hobbit Rogue, and a Tenth level at the most Female Human Fighter....hell none of the Fellowship are Epic except Gandalf. In all the only Epic creatures in Middle Earth at the time of the Trilogy at most where Gandalf, Galanderia, Elrond, and Souron at most.

The rest of the Fellowship where not epic characters, Aragorn at Most was a 20th Level Ranger/Paladin. At the most.

I'd agree with Edena to a degree. I know ICE saw the WitchKing as a 60th Lv character under Rolemaster (whilst the other Nazgul were in the 30-40th Lv range), which converts to a 30-40th Lv character under 2e. I'm not sure how it would go under 3e...they would be at a minimum as powerful as your average major Lich.

As for his death, well it was fate not at the hands of a man.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Edena....That's way to frigging high. How exactly do you figure the Witch King was a level Forty Character when he was killed by a Sixth Level at Highest Hobbit Rogue, and a Tenth level at the most Female Human Fighter....hell none of the Fellowship are Epic except Gandalf. In all the only Epic creatures in Middle Earth at the time of the Trilogy at most where Gandalf, Galanderia, Elrond, and Souron at most.

The rest of the Fellowship where not epic characters, Aragorn at Most was a 20th Level Ranger/Paladin. At the most.

Well, Tolkien says that Aragorn was the wisest and hardiest man of his day. If he's not epic, then I don't know who is.

Who is Galenderia? Do you mean Galadriel? She would definitely be epic. So would Elrond, Saruman, Glorfindel, and Cirdan. Aragorn, in my opinion - and this is all subjective, since we all have different experiences when reading the books or seeing the movie, so no one can be right or wrong - would be around 20th level or so at the beginning of the Trilogy. He was 89 years od then; he aged slower and lived much longer than men of his time, dying at 210. He had been adventuring in the wilderness for decades, had actually run Gondor's military for a long time, using a different identity decades before the time of the books, and was very well-educated - Glorfindel taught him to fight, for example. He might have been epic, but I don't feel he got to epic levels in D&D terms until he openly declared himself the rightful king of Gondor - to Sauron, no less!

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Talk about a difficult Will check!

When Aragorn looked into the Palantir, and saw Sauron looking back, and decided to FIGHT with him for control of the thing, THAT called for an opposed Will check (I think such a thing exists in 3rd edition ...)

I am sure Sauron had the higher level, as it were ... but Aragorn had a high Will save to start with, and he had multiple bonuses to that save.

And still, it was extremely close (as in, within 3 on the die roll.)

One has to give credit to Denethor.
The man did not completely wrest control of his Palantir from Sauron, but he was not completely dominated by Sauron either.
That's more than can be said of Saruman, who was heavily (but not totally) dominated, and Saruman was a Maia from Valinor.

Denethor deserves the credit Boromir gives him in the film.

- - -

Is Aragorn an Epic character? Yes.
Is Aragorn some kick-butt ranger who ultra high level with some cool Feats? No.
Aragorn is a complicated character, and it would not do justice to him unless one took the time and effort to fully flesh him out in 3rd Edition D&D terms.
I cannot do this, for I am not familiar with 3rd Edition sufficiently, and because I do not wish to take the (very large) amount of time required.
However, please give the man credit.
As Aragorn himself said, without boasting:

It would take more than a few days, or weeks, or years, of wandering in the Wild to make you look like Strider ... and you would die first, unless you are made of sterner stuff than you look to be.

Or, to make a long story short, I'd give Aragorn odds over Drizzt Do'Urden in a battle anyday, and in survival skills Aragorn wins hands down.
For that matter, I think Aragorn could match Dove Falconhand in tracking, beat her in survival tests, and would be her match in combat (even with her Chosen Powers to help her.)

A fitting person to take on the Lord of the Ringwraiths: Witch-King of Angmar; King of the Nazgul; Sauron's Second-In-Command.

And Elrond (in the film) sends his only daughter, Arwen, out on the road alone and unaided, to take on this foe and his eight shieldfellows. LOL ...

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

I find it ironic that terror is what saved Sam, Merry, and Pippin, in the Battle of Weathertop.

Merry and Pippin failed their Will saves (in D&D terms) and threw themselves to the ground.
Sam failed his Will save, and shrank to Frodo's side, effectively incapacitated.

Effectively, they played dead ... and because Frodo put on the Ring, and Aragorn leaped out to fight, they were allowed to get away with it.

Had any of the three actually attacked the Ringwraiths (as Sam did in the film), the Ringwraiths would easily have hacked them down.
Such wounds would have been fatal ... there is no question of that, when you consider that striking a Ringwraith with your own weapon ultimately kills you.

I do believe the Ringwraiths would have slain Sam, Merry, and Pippin where they lay (or stood), had they had the chance.
Aragorn saved all of them.

Had one of MY low level characters been in that situation, he would have RUN.
He would have run, and he would have kept running until he couldn't run any more ... and then he would have walked until his feet were falling off, until morning came.
For only then, with the sunrise, could he hope to stop his flight, and yet continue to live.

That is what I think FRODO and the others should have done ... they should have fled from Weathertop when they knew the enemy was nearing (in the evening hours prior to the attack), and kept moving through the night, until morning brought a measure of safety and respite.
I have thought this since I read the book 30 years ago, and nobody has yet convinced me that a more sound strategy existed for Frodo and his Company.

 

[Sarellion]

Ít seems they didn´t realize it or thought they would lose their contact to Strider

@Edena: What did Boromir say about Denethor. In german he said that he is a good and honorable man but a weak ruler. I found it odd. I thought that he was quite a strong ruler, too.

 

[Storm Raven]

Another good point you make is that the Noldor of the Third and Fourth Age are all going to be several centuries, if not millennia, old. This means they all will likely be of high level (the one in Middle Earth).

Millennia is what you are looking for. Don't even bother thinking in terms of centuries for Noldor. The youngest elf of any kind who appears in LotR is Arwen, and according to the appendices in RotK, she is about 2,000 years old. Every other elf in the books is older than she is, most of them much older.