How to describe Strider's combat on Weathertop

[Olgar Shiverstone]

Nice quote CH. From your second bit of emphasis -

It is irrelevant, therefore, what actual level of power Gandalf and the other Istari had, because they weren't allowed to use it.

Their apparent level of power is significantly lower than their actual -- but for all intents & purposes, the apparent level IS their actual level. (Did I just write that?)

IE -- I read that to support my assertion that Gandalf was effectively low level -- because he was proscribed from using his real powers (and therefore his real powers are irrelevant).

 

[Sulimo]

Nice quote CH. From your second bit of emphasis -

It is irrelevant, therefore, what actual level of power Gandalf and the other Istari had, because they weren't allowed to use it.

Their apparent level of power is significantly lower than their actual -- but for all intents & purposes, the apparent level IS their actual level. (Did I just write that?)

IE -- I read that to support my assertion that Gandalf was effectively low level -- because he was proscribed from using his real powers (and therefore his real powers are irrelevant).

I certainly dont think it shows that Gandalf was low level, or even that his apparent level was low.

1. The spell contest between the Balrog and Gandalf on the door in Moria. Gandalf won the contest, but it tired him enough to even douse his light spell.

2. He defeated the Balrog in single combat. Admittedly his physical body was mortally damaged in the fight, but still.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

1. The spell contest between the Balrog and Gandalf on the door in Moria. Gandalf won the contest, but it tired him enough to even douse his light spell.

2. He defeated the Balrog in single combat. Admittedly his physical body was mortally damaged in the fight, but still.

1. I'd interpret as knock spell vs. arcane lock, so it doesn't show too much.

2. Is entirely dependent on how you definte the Balrog. If the Balrog is a high level creature (Balor), then Gandalf should be too. If the Balrog is something else (like my fiendish fire elemental), then it's possible for Gandalf to be low level.

It's all in how you choose to set your baseline.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Don't get too comfortable, though - I think I can dig up some quotes to support Gandalf being high level.

The Return of the King, Chapter IV, The Siege of Gondor:

"The retreat became a rout. Already men were breaking away, flying wild and witless here and there, flinging away their weapons, crying out in fear, falling to the ground.
And then a trumpet rang from the Citadel, and Denethor at last released the sortie. Drawn up within the shadow of the gate and the looming walls outside they had waited for his signal: all the mounted men that were left in the City. Now they sprang forward, formed, quickened to a gallop, and charged with a great shout. And from the walls an answering shout went up; for foremost on the field rode the swan-knights of Dol Amroth with their Prince and his blue banner at their head.
'Amroth for Gondor!' they cried. 'Amroth to Faramir!'
Like thunder they broke upon the enemy on either flank of the retreat; but one rider outran them all, swift as the wind in the grass: Shadowfax bore him, shining, unveiled once more, a light starting from his upraised hand. The Nazgul screeched and swept away, for their Captain was not yet come to challenge the white fire of his foe.'

Again, emphasis mine.

Now, I know all this can be interpreted an infinite number of ways, but it looks like Gandalf broke out the Sunbeam spell finally. To use Sunbeam, a 7th level spell, he'd have to be 13 level. This passage also shows how such magic was used sparingly, in the face of the campaign's great enemies.

From Fellowship of the Ring, The Bridge of Khazad-dum:At that moment Gandalf lifted his staff, and crying aloud he smote the bridge before him. The staff broke asunder and fell from his hand. A blinding sheet of white flame sprang up.

Maybe it was his staff, but Wall of Flame still seems pretty powerful and flashy to me.

More, from Gandalf:

SPOILERS, IF YOU HAVEN'T READ THE BOOKS! Especially The Two Towers!

The Two Towers - The White Rider:'There upon Celebdil was a lonely window in the snow, and before it lay a narrow space, a dizzy eyrie above the mists of the world. The sun shone fiercely there, but all below was wrapped in cloud. Out he sprang, and even as I came behind, he burst into new flame. There was none to see, or perhaps in after ages songs would still be sung of the Battle of the Peak.’ Suddenly Gandalf laughed. ‘But what would they say in song? Those that looked up from afar thought that the mountain was crowned with storm. Thunder they heard, and lightning, they said, smote upon Celebdil, and leaped back broken into tongues of fire. Is not that enough? A great smoke rose about us, vapour and steam. Ice fell like rain. I threw down my enemy and he fell from the high place and broke the mountain-side where he smote it in his ruin.’

Emphasis mine once again.

I gues all this could be interpreted in a low-level context, but it all is rather flashy - the "fire seeds" type spells he used in the Hobbit are also kind of flashy. His fireworks are also fairly powerful illusions.

I also thought of some really "flashy" magic from LotR, the books:

- Sauron's creation of that huge black cloud that blotted out the sun just before the Battle of Pelennor Fields. No matter how you cut it, that's a high level, probably epic spell - getting a volcano or volcanoes to erupt all at once for your convenience is pretty tough. And that's without the Ring!

- Galadriel's creation of the mist that protected/obscured Lorien. Sure her Ring probably did a lot of it, but it's still a powerful effect. Besides, all the Rings seemed to enhance abilities the wearer already had.

- Galadriel's casting down of the walls of Dol Guldur, and laying open of its pits. Powerful magic, no matter how you look at it.

- Elrond's hiding of Rivendell, and his control of the Bruinen River. Again, his Ring was a big part of it, but see what I said about Galadriel. Plus, Gandalf used another illusion, this time of watery horses and riders, which shows his firework illusions may not have all been his Ring's (Narya, the Ring of Fire) doing.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

I bow to your literary research.

That's the type of evidence I was talking about!

So we could safely set Gandalf at least a 13th level minimum (unless a daylight spell would have the same effect ...), though Sauron might have some epic capability -- it that sounds a bit more like a storm of vengeance to me. And there's no telling what artifacts like the Elven rings will do.

(Of course, I still like my nice simple 8th level Gandalf ...)

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Denethor, Steward of Gondor - A Good and Noble Man

Put yourself in Denethor's place, for a moment.

The Dunedain are your subjects, and you are their Ruler.
That is to say, the Dunedain depend on you for their survival.

On you. It's all on your shoulders. Whether they live or die, will be the result of the choices and actions you take.

And there is nobody else to make those decisions; there is nobody at all.

- - -

Your enemy is Sauron.
He is immensely stronger than you are.
He is raising an army of orcs that will be far greater than the army Gondor can field.
He is gathering armies of Easterlings, Haradrim, and Corsairs, to augment his strength.

You hold the line of Anduin, from Cair Andros in the north to Pelagir in the south.
You do not have enough men to man the ancient fortresses north of Cair Andros, nor do you have the power to mount a naval assault or defense.
You hold the near side of Osgiliath.

You know very well that your defenses at the river cannot hold against the assault from Sauron.
You know that Minas Tirith itself cannot hold out forever against the assault from Mordor.
You can fall back from Minas Tirth, but the strong places of Gondor behind you are not as strong as Minas Tirith.

Yet, your people are depending on you.
They have put their trust in you.
They believe in you.
In their eyes, you and your two sons, Boromir and Faramir, are the Guardians of the Last Bastion of the Dunedain, Keepers of the White Tower.

You are the STEWARD of Gondor.

- - -

So, you do what no Steward has ever done, has ever dared to attempt - not even the Kings Earnil and Earner dared this stunt.
You take on Sauron. You challenge him to a one on one combat. A DIRECT face to face combat with the most powerful being (except perhaps Tom Bombadil) in Middle Earth.
And you win, just enough that you can use the Palantir, and with it's sight see what is befalling across your Realm and across Middle Earth.

You do not realize that what you are seeing is what Sauron desires you to see ... you do not realize that you did not win the combat (nor did you quite lose ... the combat recommenses every time you look into the Palantir.)

The Battles with Sauron age you prematurely, make you old and grey before your time.

Yet for all that, you wear chain armor.
You wear it when you sit on your chair before the empty Throne.
You wear it when you walk the streets of the White City.
You wear it, when you sleep.
You wear it, so that your body will remain strong and unbowed, though age and the struggle with Sauron ever tries to beat you down.
You do not let that happen. You fight, and you never give in.

You discover that your son, Boromir, has been killed.
The shards of his Horn lay in your lap.
And what could possibly hurt more than the loss of your son? Was it not enough that your daughter, Findulas, died young? Is it not enough that your wife is dead, and you are alone in the world?
You loved your son as you loved nothing else, and now he lies dead, and you do not even know what killed him, or why he fought in that last battle of his life.

Now, you discover that Gandalf and your other son, Faramir, knew of the Great Ring.
And they put the Ring in the hands of a halfling.
And that halfling is being led by some sort of twisted, depraved monster.

In other words, a twisted, depraved monster is leading the Ring Bearer ... leading him to Cirith Ungol.
A place of CERTAIN death; a place of legendary evil that the loremasters of Gondor shrink from the very name of.
A place where it is certain the Ring will be regained by Sauron.
You see that even Gandalf is terrified, when this news is brought to you and him.

Once Sauron regains the Ring, his power will be magnified beyond all hope of victory for your people and your land.

THEN the Great Assault begins.
Your son Faramir is struck down, and lies dying in your House.
Your city is besieged; it is burning before your eyes.
Death is coming from the sky, and the terror of the Nazgul has beaten down the resilience of your people - your army has fled from the proud walls of the White City, and grovel and hide.
The Army has five times your force, and a great fleet is coming to it's aid.
There is no aid coming for you and your people.

- - -

I ask you people, and be honest, please: if this was a Player Character of yours, just how would he or she react at this point?
Could he or she stand up to the pressure?
Could he or she stand up to the impossible odds?
Could he or she find a way to find hope out of despair?
Could he or she find a way to achieve victory out of defeat?

Or would your Player Character crumble under the assault, both physical and psychological (from Sauron) ?
Would your character think that perhaps getting the heck out of there might be a good idea - running away, abandoning the White City and his or her people?
Or would your character say: to heck with it - I'm going to die ... might as well go out there and duke it out. If I gotta die, might as well go out in a big way?

I will say this again:

Could your character say:

There is yet hope.
Our people will endure.
Our people will prevail.
I will find hope somehow.
And I will believe - believe that our allies will come, and that the darkness is not as terrible as it seems?

Denethor was a good man, a noble man, but in the end he could not withstand the assault, and it killed him.
But before you condemn him, please consider what your player character would have done, and would have felt, if he or she had been in Denethor's dire straits.

So yes, when Boromir says (in Lothlorien) his father is a good and noble man, Boromir speaks the truth.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

Denethor = Job?

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Y'know, I've never felt that Denethor was a bad ruler or an evil man. Quite the reverse. I think any who got that impression didn't read the book closely enough. He was a worthy ruler, and a powerful foe of evil, but his quest to acquire knowledge that would help him defeat Sauron ensnared him - but hey, he was able to resist being turned to evil, where Saruman wasn't able to resist - and Saruman was the greatest of his order! Denethor is a tragic figure, the book's own King Lear. He led Minas Tirith during its darkest time, and saw everything slipping away from him into the darkness. Still, he went mad instead of turning to evil.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

As for what class Denethor is in 3rd edition D&D terms, I am not certain, but I AM certain he is an Epic Level character.

Denethor has many fighter levels - whether he actually fought or did not fight does not matter: Denethor is a fighter in heart, body, and mind.
Denethor is a Sage, and has levels in that class. He understands a great deal about history and about the nature of Middle Earth.
Denethor is a Loremaster, with levels in that class. Long has he studied the ancient writings in the libraries and vaults of the White City.
Denethor has a number of levels as a Noble, if that is a class ... and his bearing is proud, his step regal, his presence commanding; Denethor stands as tall and proud as the White Tower of Ecthelion.
Within Denethor is the great strength of mind and body to match the strength and might of the great citadel that is the Tower of the Stewards, gleaming tall and high above the White City, Minas Tirith.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

It will be interesting to see what Peter Jackson's take on him is.

I'm in the "tragic hero overcome by despair" camp.

Edit: I'm not going down the "what level is he" road. By this point you can tell where I'd be ... somewhere under 10.