How to design 4th edition D&D to limit buffing

[Olgar Shiverstone]

Remember "options, not restrictions?"

I personally don't think buffs are broken (and I didn't think they were before they changed the buff spell durations, either).

Here's a technique to make them a bit more manageable -- throw a 3x5 card with the effect in the middle of the table where everyone can see it. It works great for group buffs. You can use the same technique for your character if you use a bunch of buff spells. If you want to get really high speed, color-code the cards by type, so it is easy to figure out stacking effects.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

Haste: Double your speed, double your attacks, +1 your age? System shock or DIE? I'll pass unless we're all gonna die.

I still use this version of haste. System shock becomes a dc 6 constitution check.

My players like it. Or at least they haven't complained. I should add, I use the con check for polymorph and anything that had a system shock in 1e.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

As far as buffing goes, I ditched all the cat's grace etc spells, with the exception of bull's strength, which does 1d8 1hr/lvl in my games.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

I have no problems with buffs, and would be annoyed if 4th ed. dropped or limited them.

The Auld Grump

 

[MerricB]

I think there could be some consolidation of bonus types, but I'm really enjoying the buffs that are available at the moment... and that they are short term.

Do I spend the first two turns of combat buffing, or do I go and do something active?

Cheers!

 

[zoroaster100]

I'm not saying buffs are "broken." I'm saying for me and for my players, I think the overall effect is that they take away from the fun of the game when they come to dominate the game. One problem is that most of the players in my group are not really into the heavy math. There is one player, maybe two that are. Four or five of the others definitely are not. That means I, as DM, end up having to do all the math during combat, for the player characters and the enemy. For most of them, when I let them do their own math, I notice major mistakes creep in. I don't think they are cheating, but rather that they just are not into the math, stacking/no stacking, etc. and it seems like no matter how many times I explain it, I still end up having to do the math myself when they announce their AC or attack bonus or damage and I realize they've majorly screwed up the match. So the suggestion of having the monsters buff every time to "teach" the players not to buff so much doesn't really work. It just means the fight is doubly complicated for me to run, with both sides filled with all kinds of buffs.

 

[Delta]

Haste: Double your speed, double your attacks, +1 your age? System shock or DIE? I'll pass unless we're all gonna die.

It's not a "magical aging attack", so no system shock roll.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Pondering it a bit more, one major change in 3e is that low level scrolls/potions/wands are generally pretty accessible.

Now I do not want to go back to the old days when the DM would torture the poor player for desiring a measly Scroll of Protection from Evil, but I can see how this could contribute to the math intensity of the game.

I have a radical suggestion: The PC can only benefit from 2 buff spells at a time -- there are various ways to decide which in operation. Throw in more magic items. Give the spellcasting classes some bonus magic feats.

 

[reanjr]

I think there should be fewer things in the game that provide buffs (or provide lower buffs) and that all buffs should stack with anything but themselves.

Spells would stack with any spell that was not in the same "chain" of spells (introducing another concept). But spells might be worded to indicate otherwise. Mage armor might be done like the following:

Lesser Mage Armor
Wiz 1

An invisible but tangible field of force surrounds the subject of a mage armor spell, who Armor Class is increased as if they were wearing a chain shirt (+4 AC).

Mage Armor
Wiz 3

An invisible but tangible field of force surrounds the subject of a mage armor spell, who Armor Class is increased as if they were wearing banded mail (+6 AC).

Greater Mage Armor
Wiz 5

An invisible but tangible field of force surrounds the subject of a mage armor spell, who Armor Class is increased as if they were wearing a set of full plate (+8 AC).

But more importantly, I think spells that simply cause a buff should be removed. So should most magical items, etc. A smaller list that gives new cool things to do would be much better.

 

[ashockney]

A lively discussion from this time a couple years ago, about this very topic, however, it really fleshes out the issues around "buffing" and "high level play":

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=93424&page=1&pp=40