How to determine XP for custom built characters?
- Thread starter Toledo
- Start date
aco175
Legend
I make all my NPCs like monsters. I even like to give them encounter and daily powers like in 4e. I have a fighter type with a cool attack once per rest where they can attack everyone next to them in 5ft. It gives them something more than just a bag of HP and something the party fighter does not have. I may give the NPC 2nd wind or crit on 19-20 as well if they are higher levels.
You can download my monster CR calculator here: http://www.enworld.org/forum/rpgdownloads.php?do=download&downloadid=1189
It does the number crunching for you.
Li Shenron
Legend
I think [MENTION=6881873]Toledo[/MENTION] 's idea of creating NPCs using the rules for PCs is totally legitimate, in fact it even say so on DMG page 282.
It's quite a known fact that the more complex the NPC, the more difficult for the DM to run it, and a larger number of NPC's abilities will simply go unused and wasted (out-of-combat abilities especially). But to tell him just not to do it, is quite rude... if he has more fun creating NPCs this was, why not?
A few things to keep in mind:
- CR is supposed to be used to determine if a single monster/NPC is generally appropriate to the PC group's average level: if CR > level then such monster/NPC carries the risk of killing a PC in a single round, so the DMG recommends to use CR <= level
- XP is used to gauge the total difficulty of an encounter, by adding up all the monsters' XP and compare the total with the thresholds that are based on the PCs total levels
- for custom monsters/NPCs you can first estimate the CR, and then check the corresponding XP
These ideas make it difficult to design a monster/NPCs for a specific encounter difficulty target, because if you end up with something too easy/hard then you have to go back, modify something, then recalculate everything. It is probably a good idea instead to just design the monster/NPC like you want it to be, and then figure out how to make the PCs encounter it at the right level, by dropping the encounter at the proper time in the story or write the story around it. As an example, don't try to design Saragoth the Destroyer exactly to be CR 5 and 2000 XP, but instead design Saragoth the Destroyer just the way you want it, figure out its CR/XP and then "place" it appropriately in the game/story.
The more detailed design process isn't actually that difficult, but the main problem with NPCs that are built with PC races and classes is that they won't suit well the "Monster statistics by CR" table on DMG page 274. That's because (N)PCs with classes have much better AC and attacks, while monsters have better HP and damage. In addition, average damage per round is more difficult to calculate for classed characters because they have a lot of special abilities that are limited per encounter or per day. For an NPC built with with classes, you can probably assume that the NPC will use its most powerful abilities/spells during the encounter with the PCs: these are normally also the most scarce ones (e.g. highest-level spells first). So calculate its expected damage per round as if the NPC is blowing all its biggest weapons against the PCs, meaning that lesser spells and abilities won't matter for estimating the CR.
More or less these are the steps that I would follow:
1. Design the NPC just like you feel it should be, fully as a PC if you wish, and include all the equipment
2. You now have AC, HP, attack bonus (best weapon only) and save DC to use with the table on DMG page 274.
3. You need to also calculate the average damage per round, and this is the hardest part of the process.
4. Follow the instructions on page 274-275 to figure out the CR (this is very easy)
5. Use the "Experience Points by CR" table on page 275 to get the XP (this is trivial)
I don't think that steps 2-5 will take you more than 5 minutes per NPC!
I don't buy that formula yet, at least not until I've seen some practical data... If CR is supposed to be the level of PC that is at significant risk of dying in a round, there is no way that a 20th-level spellcaster NPC is appropriate for a 10th-level party, since such spellcaster definitely has something to kill one of the PCs in a single round.
It's quite a known fact that the more complex the NPC, the more difficult for the DM to run it, and a larger number of NPC's abilities will simply go unused and wasted (out-of-combat abilities especially). But to tell him just not to do it, is quite rude... if he has more fun creating NPCs this was, why not?
A few things to keep in mind:
- CR is supposed to be used to determine if a single monster/NPC is generally appropriate to the PC group's average level: if CR > level then such monster/NPC carries the risk of killing a PC in a single round, so the DMG recommends to use CR <= level
- XP is used to gauge the total difficulty of an encounter, by adding up all the monsters' XP and compare the total with the thresholds that are based on the PCs total levels
- for custom monsters/NPCs you can first estimate the CR, and then check the corresponding XP
These ideas make it difficult to design a monster/NPCs for a specific encounter difficulty target, because if you end up with something too easy/hard then you have to go back, modify something, then recalculate everything. It is probably a good idea instead to just design the monster/NPC like you want it to be, and then figure out how to make the PCs encounter it at the right level, by dropping the encounter at the proper time in the story or write the story around it. As an example, don't try to design Saragoth the Destroyer exactly to be CR 5 and 2000 XP, but instead design Saragoth the Destroyer just the way you want it, figure out its CR/XP and then "place" it appropriately in the game/story.
The more detailed design process isn't actually that difficult, but the main problem with NPCs that are built with PC races and classes is that they won't suit well the "Monster statistics by CR" table on DMG page 274. That's because (N)PCs with classes have much better AC and attacks, while monsters have better HP and damage. In addition, average damage per round is more difficult to calculate for classed characters because they have a lot of special abilities that are limited per encounter or per day. For an NPC built with with classes, you can probably assume that the NPC will use its most powerful abilities/spells during the encounter with the PCs: these are normally also the most scarce ones (e.g. highest-level spells first). So calculate its expected damage per round as if the NPC is blowing all its biggest weapons against the PCs, meaning that lesser spells and abilities won't matter for estimating the CR.
More or less these are the steps that I would follow:
1. Design the NPC just like you feel it should be, fully as a PC if you wish, and include all the equipment
2. You now have AC, HP, attack bonus (best weapon only) and save DC to use with the table on DMG page 274.
3. You need to also calculate the average damage per round, and this is the hardest part of the process.
4. Follow the instructions on page 274-275 to figure out the CR (this is very easy)
5. Use the "Experience Points by CR" table on page 275 to get the XP (this is trivial)
I don't think that steps 2-5 will take you more than 5 minutes per NPC!
I don't buy that formula yet, at least not until I've seen some practical data... If CR is supposed to be the level of PC that is at significant risk of dying in a round, there is no way that a 20th-level spellcaster NPC is appropriate for a 10th-level party, since such spellcaster definitely has something to kill one of the PCs in a single round.
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Quickleaf
Legend
Long form (more accurate): DMG p. 273, calculate offensive CR and defensive CR and take the average.
Short form (less accurate): Non-casters CR = 1/3 level; Casters CR = 1/2 level (spell selection can change this dramatically)
Well, Tomb of Annihilation has a 20th-level lich potentially go up against roughly 10th-level PCs. And it's not the possibility of being boosted by trickster spirits or magic items that makes it a good challenge. It has to do with the "sporting" & holistic spell selection made by the game designers. Yes, you *can* have a 20th level wizard cast wish and snuff out a PC's existence...and maybe that's your style of game...but there's no edition where that was ever any fun.
Short form (less accurate): Non-casters CR = 1/3 level; Casters CR = 1/2 level (spell selection can change this dramatically)
Well, Tomb of Annihilation has a 20th-level lich potentially go up against roughly 10th-level PCs. And it's not the possibility of being boosted by trickster spirits or magic items that makes it a good challenge. It has to do with the "sporting" & holistic spell selection made by the game designers. Yes, you *can* have a 20th level wizard cast wish and snuff out a PC's existence...and maybe that's your style of game...but there's no edition where that was ever any fun.
Li Shenron
Legend
Well I don't know how is the 20th-level lich in ToA! You could test it against the DMG rules for determining CR, and see if you get something close to 10.
TwoSix
Everyone's literal second-favorite poster
Because his post didn't come across as he really enjoys statting up NPCs and figuring out their XP value, it came across as he thinks he's supposed to. A lot of newer DMs aren't always aware that challenge creation as a DM is fundamentally "Whose Line is it Anyway?" (where the rules are made up and the points don't matter!)
Satyrn
First Post
Tomb of Annihilation lists Acererack's CR as 23.
I really appreciate everything everyone suggested, recommended and noted. I downloaded the spreadsheet Tormyr, read all the pages noted, and liked the idea of comparing the NPCs to existing published material, so I bought the Skullduggery character book and Volo's Monster guide. Between those two, I have some more great examples.
I see what you all mean about the table comparing expected damage/HP/etc. to CR. My mistake is that I thought there would be something like "15th Level Character (fighter, wizard, etc.) = CR5 = 2100 XP" or similar to that. I see what you mean by having to do each person by the chart.
As to what I'm going to do for my campaign, I'm going to be using a lot of sample characters/templates from Volo's and Skullduggery for commonplace human foes, but for the "boss" encounters, I'll be building custom foes, as in my one year of experience I've seen so far (all campaigns in 6th level or less) that the multiple foe encounters can be some of the most exciting. By building more exact (and perhaps harder) encounters, with named foes, it should/could provide more memorable events.
I see what you all mean about the table comparing expected damage/HP/etc. to CR. My mistake is that I thought there would be something like "15th Level Character (fighter, wizard, etc.) = CR5 = 2100 XP" or similar to that. I see what you mean by having to do each person by the chart.
As to what I'm going to do for my campaign, I'm going to be using a lot of sample characters/templates from Volo's and Skullduggery for commonplace human foes, but for the "boss" encounters, I'll be building custom foes, as in my one year of experience I've seen so far (all campaigns in 6th level or less) that the multiple foe encounters can be some of the most exciting. By building more exact (and perhaps harder) encounters, with named foes, it should/could provide more memorable events.
For example, in my second session, I had a bar fight with 5-11 HP human thugs, 2-30 HP lieutenants, and 1-55 HP leader (all fighters). All these guys were out of the back of the Monster Manual.
I expected (wanted) the foes to win, and to stick the party in jail for fighting. Every one of the bad guys was only doing subdual damage, so no kills to the party (6 Level 1 characters - 2 bards, cleric, 2 fighters, sorcerer). I realize that is a lot of bad guy HP and attacks relative to the party, but since everything was subdual, I didn't think it was horrid - in the worst case everyone is in jail.
Actually, I thought the bad guys were likely to win, but the party eventually won. I had a different opinion of what subdual damage was supposed to do - I thought it knocked people out for the duration of the fight unless the party healed themselves, etc. But all the players were telling me subdual (unconscious) was only for D4 rounds. I don't know if that is a house rule, but I couldn't find it in the book, so ruled it as D4+1 rounds. Eventually the party won - they wouldn't have if playing by how I thought the rules are, but like I said, I couldn't find subdual damage so quickly in the middle of the fight.
The long and short of it is that the party said "Boy, that is a super tough fight, we're all going to be at third level." No, not really - the XP and subdual damage don't suggest that - six characters bounced back from being knocked out. If I had made it killing damage, for sure that would be a completely overpowered fight. Everyone will go from 0 or 250 (first week attendees) to second level - roughly 350-400 (likely 400) XP for this fight and one smaller one, plus role playing in the 400 XP.
My primary point is that I wanted to make sure exactly how many XP custom built characters are worth, so that I can properly balance encounters when the foes are trying to kill the party, not take them to jail.
I expected (wanted) the foes to win, and to stick the party in jail for fighting. Every one of the bad guys was only doing subdual damage, so no kills to the party (6 Level 1 characters - 2 bards, cleric, 2 fighters, sorcerer). I realize that is a lot of bad guy HP and attacks relative to the party, but since everything was subdual, I didn't think it was horrid - in the worst case everyone is in jail.
Actually, I thought the bad guys were likely to win, but the party eventually won. I had a different opinion of what subdual damage was supposed to do - I thought it knocked people out for the duration of the fight unless the party healed themselves, etc. But all the players were telling me subdual (unconscious) was only for D4 rounds. I don't know if that is a house rule, but I couldn't find it in the book, so ruled it as D4+1 rounds. Eventually the party won - they wouldn't have if playing by how I thought the rules are, but like I said, I couldn't find subdual damage so quickly in the middle of the fight.
The long and short of it is that the party said "Boy, that is a super tough fight, we're all going to be at third level." No, not really - the XP and subdual damage don't suggest that - six characters bounced back from being knocked out. If I had made it killing damage, for sure that would be a completely overpowered fight. Everyone will go from 0 or 250 (first week attendees) to second level - roughly 350-400 (likely 400) XP for this fight and one smaller one, plus role playing in the 400 XP.
My primary point is that I wanted to make sure exactly how many XP custom built characters are worth, so that I can properly balance encounters when the foes are trying to kill the party, not take them to jail.
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