How to determine XP for NPCs?

[AbdulAlhazred]

Well, first to directly answer the question. The DMG does not provide a way to calculate an XP value for NPCs. We can presume they have a baseline XP value as per a monster of the same level. They certainly are more capable than normal monsters, so you may want to grant XP as per an Elite, but its really just not an area covered by the rules.

My guess is that the designers of that section of the DMG assumed NPCs of this type would only be used either as incidental combatants or temporary allies. I think they didn't create an XP rule for exactly this reason, NPCs shouldn't be opponents.

Further I think we can consider DMG1 NPCs to be obsolete in effect. Consider the use cases:

1) Story NPC: something that doesn't fight. Doesn't need stats at all. At best maybe needs some skill bonus numbers for social interaction.

2) Allied NPC: Use the Companion Characters rules in DMG2, they work better.

3) Opponent: Use the monster design rules, they work better.

There isn't really a strong use case for the NPC rules and if you notice, DMG2 doesn't even provide templates to let you generate PHB2 classes as NPCs. So even WotC isn't really supporting this section of the DMG anymore. Notice too that WotC has never published in any of their material a single stat block generated using this section of the rules to the best of my knowledge. All the NPCs in Fallcrest for example use monster style stat blocks. To be honest I don't really know why NPC rules were published in the first place. I think it was more a failure on the part of the DMG authors to grasp that such a thing was really unneeded, combined with the fact that Companion Characters didn't exist at the time so there was at least one use case for them (as permanent allies).

Really, NPCs do make lousey opponents. Elite monsters work better (or even standards for more minor sidekicks and such).

 

[MrMyth]

Further I think we can consider DMG1 NPCs to be obsolete in effect.

I'm going to have disagree with that being a foregone conclusion. They may well not be rules you find useful yourself, but they seem pretty well-suited for creating NPC opponents that aren't unbalanced on the battlefield. Sure, there are better options for both story NPCs and companions - but I don't think they were ever really intended for either one. They were for designing NPC opponents, and I've personally, had a lot of success using them for that role.

Sure, the default monster design rules are an option - but I don't see why one would prefer them over the more detailed NPC creation rules, which are built on the same principles, and give some extra guidelines on how to work in class powers and abilities, etc.

 

[Ketjak]

I'd figure that each member of the opposition was an Elite monster, and work XP from there.

• 1 Action point each.
• Healing surges that they can use in combat.
• Second Wind.
• Multiple Encounter Powers
• Daily Powers.

So, an equal number of NPCs, of the party level, using PC-like abilities would be an extremely dangerous encounter (X Elite N monsters = Double typical encounter XP), about a Level + 4 encounter. The DMG strongly recommends not using anything higher, meaning that this would be a great fight for a climactic, campaign-ending encounter, where the PCs have a significant chance of dying.

Good luck.

Hi again ValhallaGH, it's been a long time.

We're thinking along the same lines - that the PC-like NPC is an Elite++. It's probably safe to say that one such opponent is a level + 3 or +4 opponent, especially if accompanied by allies that give them time to use the variety of their PC abilities. Grading them as elites and then up the level curve is a subtlety I had not considered.

I am not inclined to TPK with a whole party of similar opponents, but I am inclined to mix one in with several other "normal" opponents (monsters or regular NPCs).

To be clear, I use "normal" NPCs and monsters most of the time. I do not agree with AbdulAlhazred, as I find NPC opponents to be rich foes for my players and use them almost every session. (I also seem to recall the PH2 classes being represented for use as NPCs somewhere, perhaps the DMG2? Books are not on me.)

Thanks,

Ketjak

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Hi again ValhallaGH, it's been a long time.

We're thinking along the same lines - that the PC-like NPC is an Elite++. It's probably safe to say that one such opponent is a level + 3 or +4 opponent, especially if accompanied by allies that give them time to use the variety of their PC abilities. Grading them as elites and then up the level curve is a subtlety I had not considered.

I am not inclined to TPK with a whole party of similar opponents, but I am inclined to mix one in with several other "normal" opponents (monsters or regular NPCs).

To be clear, I use "normal" NPCs and monsters most of the time. I do not agree with AbdulAlhazred, as I find NPC opponents to be rich foes for my players and use them almost every session. (I also seem to recall the PH2 classes being represented for use as NPCs somewhere, perhaps the DMG2? Books are not on me.)

Thanks,

Ketjak

DMG2 has MONSTER templates for classes, but no NPC templates. I'm sure it wouldn't be hard to use the monster ones, they're pretty similar aside from hit point mods.

The problem I and apparently a lot of other people have with NPC opponents has several aspects to it:

1) They are overly complex for the task at hand. While simpler than full PCs they still have more different powers and tricks than you really need in a single fight. Opponents don't need a full suite of adventuring options, they are there to die or maybe run away and get revamped by the DM for another day.

2) They simply have too few hit points. PC damage level powers will easily 1 turn kill NPCs. They're glass cannons. When used as an entire opposition its even worse because the PCs are somewhat glass cannons too, its just that monster damage is fairly evenly on the low side, so you don't see it until 4 NPCs all unleash their 3[W]+blah plus effect dailies all in a row on the party defender and there's a smoking crater in the ground.

Overall they are more complex than monsters to no real point and fighting them is swingy at best, disappointing or lethal at worst. Monsters just plain work better for the majority of DMs I know. They're more resistant to damage, implement interesting tactics in a much simpler to run way, and dish out much more even attacks that give the party a chance to adapt and make decisions before someone is dead.

Honestly I'm just not sure why the NPC rules even exist. You can make the exact same opponents using the monster rules if you want pretty much anyway (and you can always tweak things as much as you feel like). I'd be very surprised if WotC provides any more support for 'vanilla' NPCs. They seem to be a 4e feature that was not all that successful or needed.

 

[ValhallaGH]

Hi again ValhallaGH, it's been a long time.

We've both been around, just doing different things. Good to see you again, though.

We're thinking along the same lines - that the PC-like NPC is an Elite++. It's probably safe to say that one such opponent is a level + 3 or +4 opponent, especially if accompanied by allies that give them time to use the variety of their PC abilities. Grading them as elites and then up the level curve is a subtlety I had not considered.

I'm not actually advocating increasing their level. I'm simply saying that the host of abilities a party of PC-style NPCs brings really makes each individual monster count as an Elite. An entire adventuring party (of the same size as the PC party) of NPCs of the same level as the PCs would be an encounter of difficulty Level + 4. Which is TPK territory.

As Abdul notes, NPCs (and PCs) tend to be glass canon-ny, dealing a lot of damage but with lower single hp totals. However, if the NPCs were treated like PCs (i.e. full healing surges, leaders with healing powers, etc., which is what the OP implied) then they can compensate for their weaknesses just like PCs can. Which makes them extremely dangerous foes.

Personally, I'd treat them like any other Elite monster. If you're not cool with splitting them up, singly or in pairs, to combine with "minions" then you might want to have the rival party be a couple of levels lower than the PCs. This way, being Level - 2 individually, they'd combine to about a Level + 2 difficulty, making for a much more survivable and enjoyable encounter.


Good luck.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Eh, making them full PCs IMHO is WORSE. They have the same hit points, which are still not enough to survive an alpha strike, but now they have a full set of powers. Its complex to run and worse the NPCs can just go nova from round one, they don't have 3 more encounters to worry about (or else they're fresh and the PCs have spent some of their stuff earlier in the day). Nothing is uglier than watching every NPC drop its daily, AP, and drop a second daily. Yes 2nd wind and whatnot will on average keep the NPC team up, but it really seems like the battle can swing on who gets the initiative.

Anyway, just what I've seen. I think AN NPC or even A PC style NPC won't cause any real problems, but they may not add much that a monster wouldn't do as well.

 

[Ketjak]

I'm not actually advocating increasing their level. I'm simply saying that the host of abilities a party of PC-style NPCs brings really makes each individual monster count as an Elite. An entire adventuring party (of the same size as the PC party) of NPCs of the same level as the PCs would be an encounter of difficulty Level + 4. Which is TPK territory.

I totally understood that - I mis-typed from my mobile, it seems. I was more considering that a PC-like level 4 Rogue (let's say) opponent in an encounter created to use it like a lurker would probably be worth the XP of a level 6 to level 8 elite monster, despite the glass cannon nature of the PC-like opponent. If one uses an XP budget to build encounters, that might adequately account for the increased danger level of using the PC-like opponent.

As Abdul notes, NPCs (and PCs) tend to be glass canon-ny, dealing a lot of damage but with lower single hp totals. However, if the NPCs were treated like PCs (i.e. full healing surges, leaders with healing powers, etc., which is what the OP implied) then they can compensate for their weaknesses just like PCs can. Which makes them extremely dangerous foes.

Indeed.

Personally, I'd treat them like any other Elite monster. If you're not cool with splitting them up, singly or in pairs, to combine with "minions" then you might want to have the rival party be a couple of levels lower than the PCs. This way, being Level - 2 individually, they'd combine to about a Level + 2 difficulty, making for a much more survivable and enjoyable encounter.

Yes, exactly my unspoken corollary. A party of 5th level PC-like opponents would be a rather interesting challenge (L+2) for a party of 7th level PCs.

Good luck.

Thanks! I always need luck to ensure my players have fun.

Abdul, I understand all your points. I know they're harder to run, and so on. I'm not arguing the merits of running them, just wondering what the rewards would be.

- Ket

 

[ValhallaGH]

I'm not saying that it's a good idea to use a "rival party" composed of PC-like foes. In fact, I think it's a terrible idea, one that will be a headache to set up, a headache to run, and less fun to play than a standard encounter of standard monsters.

That said, the question was what would the XP be like. To which I have applied my reasoning and provided both my best answer (Elite of the critter's level) and the reasoning that got me there.
I even included some implied commentary when I spoke of the overall encounter difficulty.

But, for completeness, I have now included my opinion on the decision to compose and run such an encounter.

 

[Elric]

I'm not saying that it's a good idea to use a "rival party" composed of PC-like foes. In fact, I think it's a terrible idea, one that will be a headache to set up, a headache to run, and less fun to play than a standard encounter of standard monsters.

Agreed.

That said, the question was what would the XP be like. To which I have applied my reasoning and provided both my best answer (Elite of the critter's level) and the reasoning that got me there.
I even included some implied commentary when I spoke of the overall encounter difficulty.

I think they'd be tougher than an elite of the same level. Reasoning: an equal number of elites at the same level as the PCs is a level +4 encounter. A level+4 encounter should be winnable by the PCs over 50% of the time if they're relatively fresh.

However, the NPCs in question would have all of their daily resources (daily powers/healing surges/magic item uses) available, which means that if you built a "mirror image party", it would tend to be stronger than your actual party. This implies that the mirror image party would win over 50% of the time.

If you accept my above argument that the PCs should typically win a level+4 encounter over 50% of the time if relatively fresh, then this is too hard for level +4. If said encounter reflects a level +5 difficulty, this would implies that a NPC built like a PC is the same XP as an elite one level higher.

Of course, this whole argument depends on the PCs and NPCs being built at the same power given their level. This could easily not be the case, and is one more reason not to build full NPCs as PCs, since the level of challenge could be significantly different depending whether the DM or players do a better job at building combat machines.

 

[MrMyth]

1) They are overly complex for the task at hand. While simpler than full PCs they still have more different powers and tricks than you really need in a single fight. Opponents don't need a full suite of adventuring options, they are there to die or maybe run away and get revamped by the DM for another day.

I admit, at higher levels, they can end up with a lot of powers. On the other hand, one of the very first things I ran in 4E was an epic one-shot, filled with NPCs, and they never ended up too much more complicated than the other epic monsters, even with a large variety of powers. And... the number of powers really isn't that crazy. 1 at-will power, 1-2 encounter powers? 1-2 daily powers, 1-3 utility powers?

If it is really that big a deal, I'd recommend just giving them one power from each list, and perhaps making it rechargable when bloodied, or something similar. As it is, though, I don't feel like this is really overwhelming compared to normal monsters. By epic, monsters have plenty of complex abilities anyway. Before epic, the NPC has 2-3 attack powers and 1-2 utility powers, which is relatively manageable. And I seem to recall the DMG2 even gave some guidance on trimming off a power or two, though I don't have the book on hand to confirm that.

2) They simply have too few hit points. PC damage level powers will easily 1 turn kill NPCs. They're glass cannons. When used as an entire opposition its even worse because the PCs are somewhat glass cannons too, its just that monster damage is fairly evenly on the low side, so you don't see it until 4 NPCs all unleash their 3[W]+blah plus effect dailies all in a row on the party defender and there's a smoking crater in the ground.

Yeah, an onslaught of dailies can be pretty brutal - which is why I recommend avoiding using PC-built NPCs, which can completely toast a party. With properly built NPCs, though, you shouldn't be seeing too many dailies - and there are plenty of other monsters out there that, if they group up on one PC and unload their biggest attack, are going to result in a fallen PC.

As for hitpoints, I have no idea what you are talking about. They are built using the same guidelines as most monsters. They even often have slightly higher defenses, once you factor in armor and their 'NPC bonus'.

I mean... you aren't required to use them, by any means. But I've gotten good use out of them, and others have as well. I'm just not sure where you see evidence that they have been a complete failure that have been tossed to the wayside.