How to determine XP for NPCs?

[AbdulAlhazred]

I'm not saying NPCs are a "complete failure", but just that I think if you use the monster based route you end up with consistently better results. Remember, monster design is pretty loose in terms of what you can do with powers too. In fact the only real "rules" on monster powers are the recommended damage expressions and the to-hit number. They say nothing about how many powers or how they should mechanically work.

Monsters do have generally more hit points than NPCs. Standard monsters have slightly more, roughly 10-15 points depending on monster roll and PC class. A level 1 NPC fighter would have 20 hit points, a level 1 Soldier monster has 29. Elite or solo monsters have MUCH more and that really is the key, the significant monsters have a lot of hit points. PCs can probably knock down a regular monster in a round or two, but an Elite will almost always stick around to the very end.

I think tossing AN NPC into an encounter won't bork things at all, it just may not be that interesting compared to making an elite monster with the same class template.

I do think they've pretty much abandoned the vanilla NPC rules. Why else wouldn't there be NPC class templates for PHB2 classes? I doubt they forgot about it. I think once they introduced CCs they just decided there were more options than were really needed and there wasn't a clear need for straight NPCs. They're viable but apparently WotC and a lot of players feel like their both redundant and kind of confuse the issue of how to build antagonists.

 

[MrMyth]

I'm not saying NPCs are a "complete failure", but just that I think if you use the monster based route you end up with consistently better results. Remember, monster design is pretty loose in terms of what you can do with powers too. In fact the only real "rules" on monster powers are the recommended damage expressions and the to-hit number. They say nothing about how many powers or how they should mechanically work.

Sure - like I said, you definitely can just craft the NPC on your own. But if you have some guidelines, why not use them?

Monsters do have generally more hit points than NPCs. Standard monsters have slightly more, roughly 10-15 points depending on monster roll and PC class. A level 1 NPC fighter would have 20 hit points, a level 1 Soldier monster has 29. Elite or solo monsters have MUCH more and that really is the key, the significant monsters have a lot of hit points. PCs can probably knock down a regular monster in a round or two, but an Elite will almost always stick around to the very end.

Ah, looking at it, I do see your point - monsters do have an extra levels worth of base hp, NPCs do not. Possibly to compensate for the extra defenses, possibly a design flaw. Still - 6 or 8 extra hp might seem big at level 1, but becomes pretty small by mid-heroic, much less by paragon and epic.

As for Elites and Solos having more... I don't remotely see what that has to do with the discussion. They count as two monsters, of course they will have twice as much hp as a regular NPC. On the other hand, you can build an NPC and then give him one of the Elite templates, if you really want to do so. But simply comparing a standard foe to an Elite monster is an entirely unreasonable comparison.

 

[ValhallaGH]

Elite or solo monsters have MUCH more and that really is the key, the significant monsters have a lot of hit points. PCs can probably knock down a regular monster in a round or two, but an Elite will almost always stick around to the very end.

And an NPC with 10 or 14 healing surges (which can be activated with Second Wind, his own powers, and his leader's powers) won't stick around?
Because that is what the OP was asking about, and so that is what is relevant to this discussion.

 

[Turtlejay]

Exactly! The OP's question is getting lost in the discussion, but he wanted to use fully built PC's as adversaries.

Running such an encounter would be a nightmare. You would have 5 stacks of power cards, 5 character sheets, marking on both sides, healing quarries, shrouds, whatever, not to mention all the daily or utilities that stick around an entire encounter, and usually that is enough for one person to do. The DM would be doing it with all 5 of his PC's.

Discounting all that, *if* he can keep track of it all, then his PC's operate like a hive mind, a finely tuned machine. They all know what is coming, because they are being run by one person. So now, you have the problem where your adversary PC's have *no incentive* to hold back. They will unload everything, and at increased efficiency. It is a recepie for a TPK.

If you do this, and award XP, give them as much XP as they already have. They just took all of it from the party that they fought.

Jay

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

And an NPC with 10 or 14 healing surges (which can be activated with Second Wind, his own powers, and his leader's powers) won't stick around?
Because that is what the OP was asking about, and so that is what is relevant to this discussion.

NPCs using the NPC rules have 1 HS per tier, though they are allowed to use Second Wind, unlike monsters.

My comparison of an NPC to an Elite monster IS actually quite apropos. I don't think its unfair because I think they serve the same sort of story function when used as adversaries. Is someone suggesting that your average mook monster be replaced by an NPC? I don't think that was the question. These are supposed to be interesting and challenging opponents. Regular monsters certain add interest to encounters by their presence, but they don't usually have a lot of interesting mechanics. They're bit players, you kill them and forget about them, and they act as a hazard or tactical element in a fight. Elites are personalities, and NPCs are personalities, so yes I think functionally NPCs SHOULD be compared to Elite monsters. There isn't a lot of point in giving a mook more than just the basic powers it needs to play its bit role.

I think we moved on from discussing using full PC based opponents. Its too lousy an idea to really discuss and all the flaws have been pointed out already.

Anyway, maybe we should leave off the whole discussion at this point. I don't need to beat it to death, its not THAT big a deal and I'm sure whatever the OP does (or did by now) he'll work it out. Everyone's opinions have been stated and it was plenty interesting

 

[Turtlejay]

As far as the NPC rules go, I think they work pretty well. Unfortunately, the ease of the Monster Builder has made them a lot less attractive to use, since you have to do it all by hand, but an option in the Character Builder to make your character NPC style would be awesome. It might be easier to put it there, since all the information is available to the program.

They are fun to build though, and make good Elites to round out an encounter. I enjoyed running one with an NPC Hobgoblin Warlord and a handful of archers and minions. His 1 heal was used on himself, and he was definitely a challenge. The encounter with multiple NPC's was less effective, and really showed the spikyness of the damage there. In moderation, the NPC rules really do work.

Jay