How to Evil Properly?

Alignments from Rome:

LN: Lucius Vorenus, Ceasar
LE: Octavian
CE: Titus Pullo
CG: Brutus
N: Naoibe
NE: Attia
LG: Cato
CN: Marc Antony

Brutus was the hardest one to pin down. He never does anything evil other than finishing off Caesar (whom he saw as a tyrant so there is a self defence arguemnt there). He openly promotes the Republic and the good of the ideals of Rome.
 

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Alignments from Rome:

LN: Lucius Vorenus, Ceasar
LE: Octavian
CE: Titus Pullo
CG: Brutus
N: Naoibe
NE: Attia
LG: Cato
CN: Marc Antony

Brutus was the hardest one to pin down. He never does anything evil other than finishing off Caesar (whom he saw as a tyrant so there is a self defence arguemnt there). He openly promotes the Republic and the good of the ideals of Rome.

I don't agree with the characterization of Titus Pullo or Marc Antony - and to a lesser extent Octavian.

Yes, yes Titus Pullo killed a bunch of people - arguably the only evil act of them all was Eirene's love interest. However, in the society in which he operated, killing in and of itself was not necessarily considered evil unless it was against the head of the household, your own parents or relatives, patricians, senators, etc. Killing of slaves? Completely legal if you owned them. If someone else's - it was treated as a property crime rather than a crime against a person. Killing someone lower on the social pyramid? Most likely a fine. So - killing of Eirene's love interest (another of Vorenus's slaves) was not a serious crime - Pullo just owed Vorenus money for loss of use of his property.

As to Marc Antony? As a general and politician, I'd say he is clearly LE - he uses the law and his position to his advantage, but doesn't see his acts as evil (as almost all LE characters see themselves). Scheming, politicking, etc. weren't evil - they were woven into every aspect of Roman society.

Octavian exhibits pretty much every awful character aspects around. Craven, petty, given to being capricious and tyrannical, but he does work somewhat within the existing law and did show loyalty to Caesar (in exchange for honors and accolades provided to him). I'd put him closer to NE, just like his mother.

The problem here is that we are trying to establish alignment traits based upon modern western societal values that are vastly different than those in the ancient world which had vastly different values due to a vastly harsher set of living conditions. I mean - it was considered completely normal and acceptable, for example, to take a newborn born with congenital deformities, or even a female if one wanted a male child, out into the elements and let it die of exposure. The appearance of "good" was more important than the actual practice of it. Members of the ruling class would scheme day and night to advance their own power, at the expense of their peers. The six degrees of separation aspects were paramount to doing business, advancing your interests, and beating your competitors. Bureucratic appointments were done to place your minions and supporters in key positions, or to place rivals at a disadvantage. Oftentimes people were appointed because they were incompetent and so unable to wield or abuse power effectively.

Its also interesting to note that large portions of the modern world still revolve around such values. Bribery is expected throughout Africa, the Middle East, Asia, Eastern Europe, and Central/South America. The saving of face and the appearance of tranquility is paramount throughout Asia. Personal honor and honor killings abound throughout the Middle East, Africa and SW Asia.
 
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Yes, yes Titus Pullo killed a bunch of people - arguably the only evil act of them all was Eirene's love interest.

You dont consider dragging someone down into the sewers, torturing them by cutting off their fingers, and then murdering them while they cry and sob for mercy, for no other reason than they cuckolded your best freind, to be evil?

Wow.

However, in the society in which he operated, killing in and of itself was not necessarily considered evil

So... if my PC is raised in a society that is totally OK with murder, rape and slaughter.... I'm not evil when I partake in those same activities?

unless it was against the head of the household, your own parents or relatives, patricians, senators, etc. Killing of slaves? Completely legal if you owned them. If someone else's - it was treated as a property crime rather than a crime against a person. Killing someone lower on the social pyramid? Most likely a fine. So - killing of Eirene's love interest (another of Vorenus's slaves) was not a serious crime - Pullo just owed Vorenus money for loss of use of his property.

The legality is irrelevant. It's likely legal to own and kill your own Slaves in Orc culture. It certainly is in Drow culture. Thats why Orcs and Drow are evil though! It was legal in Nazi Germany to round up minorities and send them to slave camps and execute them, but that doesnt make it any less evil.

As to Marc Antony? As a general and politician, I'd say he is clearly LE - he uses the law and his position to his advantage, but doesn't see his acts as evil (as almost all LE characters see themselves). Scheming, politicking, etc. weren't evil - they were woven into every aspect of Roman society.

Marc Antony was clearly depicted as CN in the beginning. Unconventional, amoral and a ruffian and scoundrel. A lot like Bronn of the Blackwater.

He was not Lawul (compare him to Lucius and Ceasar). He had no respect for family, honor or tradition.

When he gets to Egypt we see how decadent he has become, and he's clearly shifted to E by the time he gets there.
 

As an interesting point of comparison, I've heard that the drow of Menzoberranzan were partially based off of decadent Rome. I believe that the show "I, Claudius" was mentioned in the article... Can't remember if it's Salvatore or Rosewater in the interview though.
 

You dont consider dragging someone down into the sewers, torturing them by cutting off their fingers, and then murdering them while they cry and sob for mercy, for no other reason than they cuckolded your best freind, to be evil?

Wow.



So... if my PC is raised in a society that is totally OK with murder, rape and slaughter.... I'm not evil when I partake in those same activities?



The legality is irrelevant. It's likely legal to own and kill your own Slaves in Orc culture. It certainly is in Drow culture. Thats why Orcs and Drow are evil though! It was legal in Nazi Germany to round up minorities and send them to slave camps and execute them, but that doesnt make it any less evil.



Marc Antony was clearly depicted as CN in the beginning. Unconventional, amoral and a ruffian and scoundrel. A lot like Bronn of the Blackwater.

He was not Lawul (compare him to Lucius and Ceasar). He had no respect for family, honor or tradition.

When he gets to Egypt we see how decadent he has become, and he's clearly shifted to E by the time he gets there.

You're completely missing the point. "Good" and "Evil" are solely dependent upon a society's value system.

Modern western european societal values would say that leaving infants to die of exposure; keeping (let alone killing) slaves; sabotaging a political rival; marching troops into a different land and putting whole villages to the sword and torch are all evil acts.

Consider that those same western european societies kept slaves well into the 1800s (and one would argue that the use of sweatshop labor from 3rd world countries is modern slavery); that they brutally colonized places all over the world and/or actively continue to overthrow governments they don't agree with via the use of coups, agitators, etc.; that they use the media to sabotage their political rivals; and that they've either explicitly allowed euthanasia (or that they've doomed people to a slow death by withholding or denying care and actively preventing them from seeking treatment outside their own borders.) By your definition, all of these would be considered evil. Yet those who engage(d) in these acts or witnessed such acts in the normal course of their life didn't consider themselves to be evil. Only those negatively affected considered it evil.

In an ancient world (such as in Republican/Imperial Rome) none of these things would cause anyone to bat an eye. Because they weren't considered to be evil - they were a common part of everyday life back then. Life was just a lot harsher and people generally had less of a concern over human life when the average life expectancy in ancient Rome was only into the 40s or 50s (and only into their 30s in western europe during the middle ages), coupled with a more fervent belief in an afterlife.
 

You're completely missing the point. "Good" and "Evil" are solely dependent upon a society's value system.

No, they're not.

Are you saying a murdering rapist slave tormenting Orc or Drow is LG within their own societies because their society condones (indeed encourages) rape, murder and slavery, and sees mercy, compassion and kindness as weaknesses?

Are you saying that when the 5E PHB uses words like 'good' and 'evil' those words are intended to have different meanings that what they actually have?
 

No, they're not.

Are you saying a murdering rapist slave tormenting Orc or Drow is LG within their own societies because their society condones (indeed encourages) rape, murder and slavery, and sees mercy, compassion and kindness as weaknesses?

Are you saying that when the 5E PHB uses words like 'good' and 'evil' those words are intended to have different meanings that what they actually have?

I'm saying "alignment" is a modern notion. When you are living in an environment where you could be killed due to plague, famine, or even just traveling somewhere (freezing to death or being killed and robbed while sleeping on the road, drowning crossing a river, starvation because you ran out of food and couldn't fine more, disease due to food poisoning or tainted water, etc.), there is no distinction between good and evil. It's a dog-eat-dog, survival-of-the-fittest type of situation. The notion of a benevolent society taking care of everyone except their own didn't exist back then, for the most part. Julius Caesar providing free bread to the plebeians was the same Emperor whose troops had torture brigades to extract info from enemy troops, who used decimation to keep the troops in line, and whose armies razed every village and town in Gaul that they came across. Was Caesar good for providing free bread and bringing peace to the empire? Was he evil for killing an untold number of people in Gaul?

In ancient Rome, killing and torture weren't evil (torture of slaves was required to ensure that their testimony in legal proceedings was valid), but treason, mutiny, and other acts were. It was a matter of what was considered to affect mens' personal honor moreso than what we today would consider evil.

Keeping of slaves was "normal" in ancient societies. Killing of those below one's own station was not particularly concerning other than the possibility of needing to pay a monetary fine. Most of the things that western society considers to be serious crime (what in the US we primarily consider felonies) were considered minor in nature back then. Their values didn't see things in terms of "good" or "evil," they considered them with a view towards what would destabilize societal structures (killing family members, treason, intentionally setting a fire, failure to obey good order and discipline in the case of soldiers) or which would bring shame on one's honor (cowardly acts, being caught doing something underhanded (it was well understood that everyone of the political class schemed), etc.)

A better way to consider D&D alignment is to consider "Good" to be altruism and "Evil" to be selfishness while "Lawful" is rules, order, and societal norms while "Chaotic" is personal freedom.

I blatantly stole the following from a quora.com post:

"Lawful-Good believes that rules should benefit everyone so that a healthy society can function. There should be generous charity for the poor so that no one goes hungry or needs to resort to theft to survive. They follow the rules and expect others to do so as well. Each crime is judged on individual merits. For example, murder is always wrong, but if the murderer can show that they were defending themselves from the murder victim, they would be shown mercy and the penalties would be reduced.

Lawful-Neutral believes that a lawful society must always follow the laws/ rules, no matter the circumstances, otherwise society will fall apart. Circumstances either don't matter or have a smaller impact to those of this alignment.

Lawful-Evil uses the existing legal structure to benefit themselves. They follow the rules, but are willing to bend them in order to get what they want. They may view lying and cheating as a way to advance, as long as they don't do too much and get caught. They will not care if poor people starve as long as “they get theirs” and will use the law against others when it benefits them.

Neutral-Good people obey the laws that they believe make sense and ignore laws that they don't believe make sense or are oppressive. In modern day terms, these are people who drive faster than the speed limit (as long as that speed is safe) and may use (or have used) recreational drugs. Individual freedom for every one is their top goal, so if they have to break a few laws for the greater good, they will. Many revolutionaries are neutral-good.

Neutral-evil, on the other hands, are selfish. They don't care about society as a whole, just themselves or perhaps a small circle of friends and/ or family. They don't want to be caught breaking the law (because they don't want to risk the punishment), but hold most rules in contempt.

Chaotic-good believe that most laws are repressive and that society should have the minimum number of laws possible to function. They are willing to flout the law if they believe that the law is wrong, and may even do so openly if they think it will show how ridiculous that particular law is. Otherwise, they will go along when necessary. These people are generous and kind, always willing to give aid to someone in need.

Chaotic-Neutral people are often extremely creative and don’t like following the rules. They will do so if they feel they must, either to avoid problems with others or to avoid penalties, but individual freedoms are paramount in their minds, and they view all rules as oppressive, even the simplest and most obvious.

Chaotic-Evil represents a hatred of society, laws and rule with a generous scoop of selfishness on top. These are the criminals who will cut a peasant’s throat for a copper piece and laugh while they do it. They view anyone who follows the rules as a “rube” begging to be taken down, and people of good alignment as fools too stupid to care for themselves. This doesn't make them stupid, and they will hide their crimes to the best of their ability."

Based upon these descriptions, Titus Pullo is squarely CN and Marc Antony is squarely LE. Ancient Roman society itself would likely be considered a mixture of LN or LE with pockets of NE.

The issue boils down to alignment being applied objectively to situations of moral relativism. I think a better way of doing alignment is to "assign" it after you go from 1st level to 2nd level. The DM can write down instances of each PC's actions during each session of gameplay while at 1st level and then come to a conclusion as to the path that PC is on. How about a necromancer who worships Wee Jas who donates alms to the local parish to feed the poor. Is the necromancer good for feeding the poor, or is he evil for creating undead? And - that's a perfect example. In The Walking Dead, the zombies aren't good or evil, they just are. "Killing" them isn't considered evil or good, just necessary.
 
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I'm saying "alignment" is a modern notion.

With a modern definition and context. The authors of the 5E PHB didnt expect us to look at what is 'good or evil' through the lens of Hitler, or a slave owning murdering Roman rapist, or an Orc mass murderer or a Drow demon worshipping psychopath when determining what is (or is not) morally good or evil.

Good means morally good. Altruism, mercy, respect for the lives of others and self sacrifice. Evil means morally evil; harming, oppressing or killing others.

Slavery rape and murder is evil. This is whey races and cultures that condone those things (Orcs Drow, Thayans etc) get 'evil' placed next to the alignment section of their stat block in the Monster manual

When you are living in an environment where you could be killed due to plague, famine, or even just traveling somewhere (freezing to death or being killed and robbed while sleeping on the road, drowning crossing a river, starvation because you ran out of food and couldn't fine more, disease due to food poisoning or tainted water, etc.), there is no distinction between good and evil.

It's a dog-eat-dog, survival-of-the-fittest type of situation.

Is what an evil person would say.

In ancient Rome, killing and torture weren't evil

Godwin time, but in Nazi Germany the holocaust wasn't evil.

You seem to think just because there is broad acceptance of evil by a group or society, then that thing is no longer evil.

Which makes Drow and Orc society Lawful and Good.

I'm a solicitor IRL, and we use a rule of Statutory interpretation often; if your reading of a law or bit of Legislation results in a perverse or backwards result to what that legislation intends or states outright, you're reading it wrong.

Apply that here.
 

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With a modern definition and context. The authors of the 5E PHB didnt expect us to look at what is 'good or evil' through the lens of Hitler, or a slave owning murdering Roman rapist, or an Orc mass murderer or a Drow demon worshipping psychopath when determining what is (or is not) morally good or evil.

Good means morally good. Altruism, mercy, respect for the lives of others and self sacrifice. Evil means morally evil; harming, oppressing or killing others.

Slavery rape and murder is evil. This is whey races and cultures that condone those things (Orcs Drow, Thayans etc) get 'evil' placed next to the alignment section of their stat block in the Monster manual



Is what an evil person would say.



Godwin time, but in Nazi Germany the holocaust wasn't evil.

You seem to think just because there is broad acceptance of evil by a group or society, then that thing is no longer evil.

Which makes Drow and Orc society Lawful and Good.

I'm a solicitor IRL, and we use a rule of Statutory interpretation often; if your reading of a law or bit of Legislation results in a perverse or backwards result to what that legislation intends or states outright, you're reading it wrong.

Apply that here.

"Is what an evil person would say?" Sooo... Every peasant throughout the ancient world is evil, by your definition.

"Godwin Time?" You miss the point. Nazi Germany was considered evil by most other nations. That didn't prevent Italy from aligning with them. It didn't prevent Soviet Russia from signing a non-aggression pact. The majority of society in Nazi Germany considered itself moral, law-abiding citizens. An orc who goes and raids an elf village, bringing back slaves and food is considered a hero, a bread-winner for his family - a "good guy." A different orc that runs away in cowardice is considered "evil" by orc society.

Moral relativism and the danger of applying objective definitions of morality and ethics based upon modern concepts.

A "lawful evil" mayor character who has beggars and orphans rounded up and executed to "clean up his town" doesn't consider himself to be evil. But he'd consider a "chaotic evil" psychopath serial killer terrorizing his citizens to be evil, and he'd consider a "neutral good" "the mayor is oppressing us and must be removed from office" character to be evil for destabilizing society.
 
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