D&D 5E How to "fix" (or at least help) the fighter/wizard dynamic. (+)

How to best help Fighters get shenanigans to bridge the gap to Wizards?



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DND_Reborn

Legend
I removed the comment because I doubt it is helpful for your needs in your thread. But, it is an informed, calm, guarantee. I will only play an RPG that has effective caster classes and similar.
I appreciate that, but you are of course entitled to your opinion and views!

I have another version that keeps it normal until level 11, then slows things down a bit but still allows 9th level spells at 20th level.

(You get 7th level spells at 14th, 8th level spells at 17th, and 9th level spells at 20th.)
 
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Yaarel

Mind Mage
I appreciate that, but you are of course entitled to your opinion and views!

I have another version that keeps it normal until level 11, then slows things down a bit but still allows 9th level spells at 20th level.
Balancewise, the full-caster classes are fine overall.

I wouldnt mess with them substantially.

If a setting needs low-magic, just use the part-casters.



I do the opposite for the Feywild setting. There, the Fey embody magic. Martial classes dont exist. Only full-caster classes (plus Paladin and Monk) are available. For an eladrin or a satyr to learn how to be a Fighter or Rogue, they typically become part of a human culture in the Material Plane.
 

DND_Reborn

Legend
If a setting needs low-magic, just use the part-casters.
Because there are other features for most casters that aren't just spells.

But, we did nerf bards to make them half-casters. At one point Sorcerers were subclasses of Wizards and Warlocks were a subclass of Clerics, as well.

Anyway... back to the Fighter. :)
 

Yaarel

Mind Mage
Because there are other features for most casters that aren't just spells.

But, we did nerf bards to make them half-casters. At one point Sorcerers were subclasses of Wizards and Warlocks were a subclass of Clerics, as well.
I love the full-caster Bard. Its mythological accuracy is significant.



Half-casters are an appealing setting approach.

For low-magic mages, the Paladin makes a great Tolkien Gandalf concept.

The Trickster makes a great "magician" concept.

The Ranger makes a great nature magic concept. Barbarian too.

The Monk makes a great East-Asian-esque concept.

I would reserve Eldritch Knight for a high elf culture specifically.

Psi Knight is awesome for a telekinetic concept.

The Artificer covers many concepts, including magic item creator, potion brewer, alchemist, and perhaps in the future a necromancer with an undead "pet".

5e has excellent options for this lower magic mood.



Anyway... back to the Fighter. :)
 
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Yaarel

Mind Mage
We just prefer it as a half caster like in 3E, as a full caster the class is too strong.

Theme-wise I think the class is pretty solid.
If you look into Celtic folkbelief about Bards, including Taliesin and Merlin, they are full casters. Some of the slot 9 spells like Shapechange derive from the reallife Bard traditions.
 


Yaarel

Mind Mage
D&D doesn't reflect real world lore IMO, so I just go with it. ;)
D&D reflects real world lore for the Celtic Bard.

Moreover, mythological accuracy is increasing important because of cultural sensitivity, to represent various cultural heritages respectfully and accurately.
 


Yaarel

Mind Mage
I am brainstorming how to translate 4e Warlord features into the 5e Fighter base.

As one of the options for a Martial Maneuver:

Pay Attention. For an ally that can see you or hear you, your timely alert increases combat responsiveness and dispels fatigue. As a bonus action, your ally gains a number of hitpoints equal to your Charisma bonus and the ally can spend one of their hit die if any. However, if the ally has reduced to zero hit points, thus incurs a significant physical injury, the ally cannot benefit from Pay Attention until after the ally has refreshed to maximum hit points, thus recovers from the injury.
 
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lingual

Adventurer
This has been brought up and (at least for me) has already been done as well. Here is the new full-caster spell progression. Note, full casters don't even get a 1st level spell until 3rd level. :)

View attachment 151478

We also have revised progressions for half-casters and sublcasses.
I don't think that drastic of change would ever fly.

I think it would be better to just make some spells ritual only. Or some spells that add exhaustion. You could then just cherry-pick the particular spells that are abused.

A lot of the examples I see of caster imbalance go on the assumption that the caster has spammable slots and the right spell always prepared for the right occasion.
 




FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
@DND_Reborn - what are your goals in creating your new Fighter class? Let's get as explicit as possible.

Do you want to increase their damage. If so, at what levels and by how much.
Do you want to increase their Nova capabilities. If so, at what levels and by how much.
Do you want to increase their out of combat abilities. If so, at what levels and by how much.
Do you want to increase their defensive capabilities. If so, at what levels and by how much.
Etc.

For example. I think fighters out of combat abilities are lacking for levels 1-20. I'd add 3-4 abilities to the fighter to address this with the first being at level 1 or 2.

I think fighters damage is mostly fine but that they could use a little boost possibly by as early as mid-late tier 2. I 'd grant them a boost there and another in mid tier 3.

In terms of defense my primary concern is saves. I'd suggest fighters get some significant bonuses there. I'd lean toward tier 3 for this to occur (or possibly a scaling option that starts earlier but starts small). I'd also suggest that get a bit of an ac bump at some point as well.

I think action surge really handles nova capabilites. Though getting an extra use somewhere near tier 3 could help. This might be the combat boost i'd go with for mid-late tier 2.
 

Yaarel

Mind Mage
For example. I think fighters out of combat abilities are lacking for levels 1-20. I'd add 3-4 abilities to the fighter to address this with the first being at level 1 or 2.
At level 1, I think more skills and more skill choices is enough for competence in noncombat.

And then at level 3, do something substantially nice in noncombat.

Plus more at higher tiers.
 

DND_Reborn

Legend
@DND_Reborn - what are your goals in creating your new Fighter class? Let's get as explicit as possible.
Certainly, glad to do it!

Do you want to increase their damage. If so, at what levels and by how much.
Not really. If changes up their damage slightly, that is fine, but that isn't a goal.

Now, changing their versatility is an issue. I think adding some BM maneuvers (a few) is a good place to start, but many of them just result in more damage so isn't ideal for me.

A better change, but would be somewhat build specific, would be gaining advantage when knocking a creature prone. This way, it doesn't directly impact damage, but it makes the shove/knock prone attack more interesting and beneficial over "just causing more damage". I know it can help damage, but not directly.

Do you want to increase their Nova capabilities. If so, at what levels and by how much.
Somewhat, but not Nova so much as a way to make a huge, game-changing impact on an encounter. This would be a bit in tier 3, but more so in tier 4. The purpose is to bridge that cap with what high level casters are capable of. Personally, this isn't an issue for me, but for others and I am just trying to help build a class that helps them out.

Do you want to increase their out of combat abilities. If so, at what levels and by how much.
This was a goal, until I took a deeper look into the feats just in the PHB alone. Those extra ASIs at 6th and 14th could go a good way towards making a fighter more effective in the exploration and social pillars, without necessarily stepping on the toes of the skill monkeys (bards and rogues with expertise).

The problem is most players feel to stay competitive in combat, those ASIs have to be used in abilities or for feats to make them better at combat; instead of choosing feats that would help outside of combat.

So, while I am not adverse to this, it really isn't a major goal anymore. A feature like Many Leagues, which would give fighters some exploration or social skills, would alleviate the issue and allow them to still use the ASIs for combat...

Do you want to increase their defensive capabilities. If so, at what levels and by how much.
Not so much really. If anything, just having Indomitable be a success instead of a reroll, and maybe give Fighters an extra save or two (Fighters in AD&D had the best saves by the end...) would be good.

Finally, while I don't feel niche protection must be absolute, I do think having a good part of it back in the game is preferable. Too many classes are good at combat, where the Fighters should be best IMO, but in the same respects too many classes and subclasses get magic now, which isn't a good design choice IMO, but I know most people seem to like it.

Oh, one last thing, I would like to keep it as close to the RAW class / progression as possible. So, the big places to add something would be levels 6 and 14 to replace the bonus ASIs, and then 13 and 17 where right now they just get more uses of features instead of new features.

Just FYI, I'll be busy tomorrow, so I might be a while in replying. Cheers and thanks for any input/assistance!
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
Certainly, glad to do it!


Not really. If changes up their damage slightly, that is fine, but that isn't a goal.

Now, changing their versatility is an issue. I think adding some BM maneuvers (a few) is a good place to start, but many of them just result in more damage so isn't ideal for me.

A better change, but would be somewhat build specific, would be gaining advantage when knocking a creature prone. This way, it doesn't directly impact damage, but it makes the shove/knock prone attack more interesting and beneficial over "just causing more damage". I know it can help damage, but not directly.


Somewhat, but not Nova so much as a way to make a huge, game-changing impact on an encounter. This would be a bit in tier 3, but more so in tier 4. The purpose is to bridge that cap with what high level casters are capable of. Personally, this isn't an issue for me, but for others and I am just trying to help build a class that helps them out.


This was a goal, until I took a deeper look into the feats just in the PHB alone. Those extra ASIs at 6th and 14th could go a good way towards making a fighter more effective in the exploration and social pillars, without necessarily stepping on the toes of the skill monkeys (bards and rogues with expertise).

The problem is most players feel to stay competitive in combat, those ASIs have to be used in abilities or for feats to make them better at combat; instead of choosing feats that would help outside of combat.

So, while I am not adverse to this, it really isn't a major goal anymore. A feature like Many Leagues, which would give fighters some exploration or social skills, would alleviate the issue and allow them to still use the ASIs for combat...


Not so much really. If anything, just having Indomitable be a success instead of a reroll, and maybe give Fighters an extra save or two (Fighters in AD&D had the best saves by the end...) would be good.

Finally, while I don't feel niche protection must be absolute, I do think having a good part of it back in the game is preferable. Too many classes are good at combat, where the Fighters should be best IMO, but in the same respects too many classes and subclasses get magic now, which isn't a good design choice IMO, but I know most people seem to like it.

Oh, one last thing, I would like to keep it as close to the RAW class / progression as possible. So, the big places to add something would be levels 6 and 14 to replace the bonus ASIs, and then 13 and 17 where right now they just get more uses of features instead of new features.

Just FYI, I'll be busy tomorrow, so I might be a while in replying. Cheers and thanks for any input/assistance!
So two thoughts.
1. I read this and have no idea what your goals are for your fighter. I know your goal is not to significantly change damage, nova, defense or out of combat utility as that's what you just stated - though increasing out of combat utility was previously a goal. But I really have no idea what your goal currently is.
2. IMO. One thing that really helps with design is to not be overly rigid with precise implementations.
 

S'mon

Legend
IME running 5e like 1e, with 6-8 fights per 'adventure'/'long rest', and a 1e style magic item distribution (Fighter gets a magic sword, Wizard gets a spell scroll) fixes things fine. The less 5e resembles 3e (15 MAD, Wizards make magic items for Wizards) the better.
 

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