D&D 5E How to "fix" (or at least help) the fighter/wizard dynamic. (+)

How to best help Fighters get shenanigans to bridge the gap to Wizards?


Yaarel

Mind Mage
If possible, I want to schedule each tier in the following order.

Proficiency +2
1. Archetype (choose Archetype, Fighting Style)
2. Base (Action Surge, Second Wind)
3. Noncombat ("Student": Many Leagues)
4. Feat

Proficiency +3
5. Archetype
6. Base (Extra Attack, Martial Maneuver)
7. Noncombat ("Professional": Superiority Training)
8. Feat

Proficiency +4
9. Archetype
10. Base (Extra Attack x2, Indomitable)
11. Noncombat ("Master": acquire fortress and train soldiers)
12. Feat

Proficiency +5
13. Archetype
14. Base (Action Surge x2, Tactical Intervention)
15. Noncombat ("Archon" /Arch/Leader/Excellency/Great: Turn The Tide)
16. Feat

Proficiency +6
17. Archetype
18. Base (Extra Attack x3)
19. Noncombat ("Legend": choose Method Of Immortality)
20. Feat (or with DMs approval choose an Epic Boon)



Tactical Intervention. You can use an action to grant an ally an action on your turn. You can use this ability again after a short or long rest.

There is concern about balance, because by itself the Action Surge or Extra Attack is worth an entire level, and here it doubles up with an additional base trait on top of it. However, the following level shouldnt improve the combat pillar, so perhaps the jump in combat power in the previous level is ok?
 
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Remathilis

Legend
This seems like a downgrade compared to the Battlemaster, at least at lower levels. The Battlemaster normally starts out with d8s. More notably, the Battlemaster recovers all superiority dice on any short rest, instead of 1-3 on one short rest per day.

At moderate levels (5-6 and 9+), this is a little more front-loaded than a regular Battlemaster, but has less staying power.

Wait, so now Second Wind also costs a superiority die? That's essentially one less die per short rest, plus being weaker up to level 10. Plus costing a maneuver choice.

I mean, I recognize that there's a whole package here, including folding the battlemaster into the base class, but personally I'd rather have 4-6 dice (plus second wind) per short rest and frequent short rests than 4-11 dice (and having to use them for second wind as well) per long rest.


This could probably use some wording changes. Generally, you only add your proficiency bonus once to any given roll (though that bonus may in some cases be halved or doubled). So if you were to use Indomitable on a Con save, would that be +Con + 1.5*proficiency, or +Con+0.5*proficiency? For simplicity, just make it +2 which is an improvement at level 6-8 and the same at level 9-16.

The "minimum 1 superiority die per fight" part of this is a 15th level ability for the Battlemaster.

Battlemaster, being a subclass, could only really upgrade at certain levels. I tried to spread the growth up more. I started with d6's because it matched what other non BM characters who end up with maneuvers get (either by feat or fighting style). You only lag for levels 3 and 4 though.

I'm not 100% on the recharge mechanic, I can certainly see arguments for uses a day (recharge every short rest like a bard vs. 1/day like wizard) or amount (partial vs full). Its one of those areas playtesting would iron out.

The advantage of 2nd wind as a maneuver is that use can use it more times than 1/rest.

Keep in mind this fighter is effectively getting the BM maneuvers + champion + an actual subclass. That's like 2.5 subclasses rolled into one.

Yeah, I want to add a bonus to the reroll, but it needs some reworking.

Again, It was stacking onto the champion's 18th level ability. Some things had to get moved.

That all being said, I agree it needs tweaking and some extensive playtest balancing. But the idea was to show how it could work.
 

DND_Reborn

Legend
If possible, I want to schedule each tier in the following order.

1. Archetype (choose Archetype, Fighting Style)
2. Base (Action Surge, Second Wind)
3. Noncombat ("Student": Many Leagues)
4. Feat

5. Archetype
6. Base (Extra Attack, Martial Maneuvers)
7. Noncombat ("Professional": Superiority Training)
8. Feat

9. Archetype
10. Base (Extra Attack x2, Indomitable)
11. Noncombat ("Master": acquire fortress and train soldiers)
12. Feat

13. Archetype
14. Base (Action Surge x2, Tactical Intervention)
15. Noncombat ("Archon" /Arch/Leader/Excellency/Great: Turn The Tide)
16. Feat

17. Archetype
18. Base (Extra Attack x3)
19. Noncombat ("Legend", choose Method Of Immortality)
20. Feat (DM may choose to award an Epic Boon)



Tactical Intervention. You can use an action to grant an ally an action on your turn. You can use this ability again after a long rest.

There is concern about balance, because by itself the Action Surge or Extra Attack is worth an entire level, and here it doubles up with an additional base trait on top of it. However, the following level shouldnt improve the combat pillar, so perhaps the jump in combat power in the previous level is ok?
All in all I would say this is ok, but I (personally) am trying not to shift things around too much; such as keeping Extra Attacks at levels 5, 11, 20 instead of 6, 10, 18. I do like the idea of trying to get in at least one non-combat thing per tier.
 

deganawida

Adventurer
One of the easiest fixes is to limit the types of magical items, as well as total number of said items, that magic users can wear/use. Can say that it's too dissimilar to the magic user's own flavor of magic, or that resonance causes issues.

I'm also in favor of bringing back the social aspect of the fighter from earlier editions. The magic user may be unlocking occult secrets, but the fighter is now ruling a territory and has an army.
 

Yaarel

Mind Mage
All in all I would say this is ok, but I (personally) am trying not to shift things around too much; such as keeping Extra Attacks at levels 5, 11, 20 instead of 6, 10, 18. I do like the idea of trying to get in at least one non-combat thing per tier.
There are benefits to shifting the features around slightly.

The schedule guarantees the Fighter character already is the desired Archetype at level, so that the level 1 Eldritch Knight can feel quite different from the level 1 Samurai.

Meanwhile, there is more attention to noncombat pillars.

At higher levels, the schedule makes it more obvious how to fill out the "empty levels", so the Fighter character never feels like it is lagging behind.

There is never a disappointing capstone at level 20, because the player can pick the feat, or with DM approval, the epic boon.
 

I got an idea.
Tie fighting style, with on social skill and some bonus to it.
ex.:
Great weapon fighting style, give prof in intimidate, eventually add Str bonus to the check.
Protection, give prof to persuade. Add Str to check.
Archery, give prof in perception. May use dex instead of wis for check.
Duelling. Give prof in deception. May add dex instead of cha to check.

That may give some flavor, and some help in social skill.
 

Staffan

Legend
I got an idea.
Tie fighting style, with on social skill and some bonus to it.
ex.:
Great weapon fighting style, give prof in intimidate, eventually add Str bonus to the check.
Protection, give prof to persuade. Add Str to check.
Archery, give prof in perception. May use dex instead of wis for check.
Duelling. Give prof in deception. May add dex instead of cha to check.

That may give some flavor, and some help in social skill.
This is a pretty cool idea. If you also combine this with multiple fighting styles, I'd limit it to the first one because (a) a fighter shouldn't out-skill a rogue, and (b) it always feels iffy to add proficiencies later (though skill proficiencies are less of an issue).
 

This is a pretty cool idea. If you also combine this with multiple fighting styles, I'd limit it to the first one because (a) a fighter shouldn't out-skill a rogue, and (b) it always feels iffy to add proficiencies later (though skill proficiencies are less of an issue).
IMO a fighter with some charisma and big strength can outskill a rogue in intimidate!
I just throw the idea, there is a lot of work to do with it.
 

Yaarel

Mind Mage
Maybe the Noncombat features can offer different styles.

For example, an Eldritch Knight associates a scholarly approach to Noncombat, but other Fighters might want to choose this scholarly approach too.

What might the main Noncombat styles be?

Leader, Artisan, Scholar, Explorer, Thug (Intimidate, criminal contacts), Sports Champion, Business Owner, Mercenary, Aristocrat

While leadership tends to focus on military hierarchy, it lends itself to civilian life as a political leader, and similar. Special abilities could be things like "Pull Rank", being able to get what one wants because of clout and an expectation of that is how it should be, "Work The System", getting what seems impermissable or avoiding obligations.
 

lingual

Adventurer
If Wizards are the ones with the shenanigans that break the game, shouldn't the focus be on nerfs? Rather than buffing other classes so that too are unbalanced? It would seem simple to nerf on class than to buff other(s) and also have to rebalance encounters, etc.
 

Fanaelialae

Legend
If Wizards are the ones with the shenanigans that break the game, shouldn't the focus be on nerfs? Rather than buffing other classes so that too are unbalanced? It would seem simple to nerf on class than to buff other(s) and also have to rebalance encounters, etc.
IMO, high level play is all about shenanigans that "break the game". That's a big part of the fun of high level play. (And I say this as a DM who has run multiple high level campaigns.)
 


Staffan

Legend
IMO a fighter with some charisma and big strength can outskill a rogue in intimidate!
I just throw the idea, there is a lot of work to do with it.
I don't mind a fighter being better than a rogue in some skills, particularly if they're just "regular" skills for the rogue and not expertise skills. The problem is when the fighter gets more skills than the rogue, which is what would happen if you combine "free proficiencies for fighting styles" with "more fighting styles".
 

Staffan

Legend
If Wizards are the ones with the shenanigans that break the game, shouldn't the focus be on nerfs? Rather than buffing other classes so that too are unbalanced? It would seem simple to nerf on class than to buff other(s) and also have to rebalance encounters, etc.
Wizards are just the ones with the access to the widest range of shenanigans. All primary casters have them to some degree.
 

I don't mind a fighter being better than a rogue in some skills, particularly if they're just "regular" skills for the rogue and not expertise skills. The problem is when the fighter gets more skills than the rogue, which is what would happen if you combine "free proficiencies for fighting styles" with "more fighting styles".
the bonus skill can be allowed later in the progression as well as other bonus or features. there is already other classes archetype that receive extra skill during their progression.
 
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DND_Reborn

Legend
If Wizards are the ones with the shenanigans that break the game, shouldn't the focus be on nerfs? Rather than buffing other classes so that too are unbalanced? It would seem simple to nerf on class than to buff other(s) and also have to rebalance encounters, etc.
This has been brought up and (at least for me) has already been done as well. Here is the new full-caster spell progression. Note, full casters don't even get a 1st level spell until 3rd level. :)

1644275778854.png


We also have revised progressions for half-casters and sublcasses.
 

Pauln6

Explorer
Is there any merit in letting fighters choose one battlemaster manoeuvre at level 2, which they can then use at will but without adding superiority dice? So skill check manoeuvres would be off limits since, without superiority dice, they are just normal skill checks but others might just give the fighters a few at will tricks.

I think Riposte would need a nerf so that it only does superiority die damage + Str/Dex so that if using at will, it would inflict only Str or Dex damage (still very useful for a swashbuckler fighter-rogue). I think lunging attack is probably the only other problem since giving at will 5ft extension on attacks is a bit much.

Maybe Superior Technique lets you choose a second at will manoeuvre in addition you your 1d6 die to add to one of your rolls.

One other possibility is to ask battlemasters to pick one of the fighting styles in Tashas and allow them to use any manoeuvres off that list at will without adding superiority dice and then any they choose outside that list would require superiority dice like now.
 

Yaarel

Mind Mage
This has been brought up and (at least for me) has already been done as well. Here is the new full-caster spell progression. Note, full casters don't even get a 1st level spell until 3rd level. :)

View attachment 151478

We also have revised progressions for half-casters and sublcasses.
I love casters. The above schedule looks unacceptable.



A more constructive approach would be to design a low-magic setting, that lacked fullcaster classes.

Then I can pick other settings where players can enjoy caster classes.
 
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