D&D 5E How to "fix" (or at least help) the fighter/wizard dynamic. (+)

[Aldarc]

The whole problem is D&D itself isn't honest.

The base assumption of the D&D fighter is a Christmas Tree.

Your 11th level fighter is an above average humanoid with national recognized combat ability and is supposed to have:

1. A magic melee weapon
2. A backup magic melee weapon or a magic shield
3. A magic ranged weapon
4. A set of magic armor or an uncommon noncombat magic item
5. A common noncombat magic item
6. A bandolier of potions

The game doesn't outright say this. The community doesn't out right say this. But this is the assumption. 5e D&D attempts to be cute by saying "you don't need magic items" but it assumes if you don't use magic items, the DM doesn't use 75% of the monsters in the book over CR 9. Again, it is info not outright said. 5e lowered the "requirement" of magic items but the Christmas Tree Fighter is the assumption for mid and high level play.

However the Christmas Tree Fighter has Pro and Against factions. This is because different mediums of entertainment in the fantasy genre use Christmas Tree Fighters or don't. Anime typically doesn't. Novels typically do. Comics doesn't with a few noteable exceptions.. Older Cartoons do. New Cartoons is a mixed bag. Movies follow the source. Mythology does and doesn't at the same time. Wrestling doesn't.

This cases a debate based on the type of media you might prefer (and how old you are).

So the Options are

1. Accept the Christmas Tree Fighter
2. Stop play before the Christmas Tree Fighter is turned on
3. Create Christmas Tree and Innate versions of the Fighter
4. Create a new class that doesn't rely on the Christmas Tree effect
5. Something else

I know wizard players would find anything that limited their access to magic abhorrent, but this post has me wondering what a system would like that limited magic item attunement based upon your spell access. The more spell access you have in terms of spell level, the less magic item attunement you have. So the more non-magical you are, the more magic items you can use. Have it be a trade-off. hocus pocus justification Maybe the character's personal ability to channel and cast magic interferes with magic items?

To me it sounds awful; in that both as player and DM I want a grittier game where attrition is a thing, recovery takes significant time, and resources matter. 5e as written is already way too generous; and the "gritty" options provided are a start but only a start.

Being able to chug along forever like a squadron of Energizer bunnies on steroids holds no appeal whatsoever...well, other than for a gonzo game on New Year's Day when nobody's sober anyway.

But would you even play that 5e attrition game when you - from what I understand - use only your homebrewed 1e game? So what would be gained by making 5e into a game that neither you nor current 5e fans would play?

 

[Minigiant]

I know wizard players would find anything that limited their access to magic abhorrent, but this post has me wondering what a system would like that limited magic item attunement based upon your spell access. The more spell access you have in terms of spell level, the less magic item attunement you have. So the more non-magical you are, the more magic items you can use. Have it be a trade-off. hocus pocus justification Maybe the character's personal ability to channel and cast magic interferes with magic items?

Well the game is already tilted to warriors.
Following DMG rules:
~10% of the treasure rolls from hoards are Armors, Shields, and Weapons
~4% of the treasure rolls from hoards Staves, Rods, and Wands
~40% are Potions
~15% are Scrolls

From level 1-10, a party of 4 is supposed to get 9-12 permanent magic items if you follow the DMG. And WOTC and 3rd party adventures can easily double or triple that.

So if your party gets to level 10 with 30 magic items. 8-10 will be Armors, Shields, and Weapons. Many will be stuff only warriors can use so they will get to call dibs or trade for them more often.

And if you play a converted old edition module, oh boy.

OF course, the books don't tell anyone this.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Just give us some stuff to do that's not just a basic attack forever until the end of time. Different effects, maybe based on weapon, like you can knock people about with a hammer, or polevault and kick with or spin a polearm (don't care if that's how they worked historically), Robin hood trick shots with arrows; stuff like that.

Yep, this is good stuff. Allow doing cools stuff and adding riders to attacks depending on the weapon you're using. And then don't make them choose, give them all 'weapon trick' so there actually is an incentive to change weapons and use different ones in different situations, like a wizard would bring different spells for different situations.

 

[Fanaelialae]

I know wizard players would find anything that limited their access to magic abhorrent, but this post has me wondering what a system would like that limited magic item attunement based upon your spell access. The more spell access you have in terms of spell level, the less magic item attunement you have. So the more non-magical you are, the more magic items you can use. Have it be a trade-off. hocus pocus justification Maybe the character's personal ability to channel and cast magic interferes with magic items?

An interesting idea, but I don't think it solves the root issue. The problem, as I see it, isn't that the fighter can only attune to the same number of items as a wizard. Rather, it is that the fighter is heavily dependent on obtaining (useful) magic items (whereas the wizard is not). And obtaining useful magic items is not something players have any control regarding by default. In some games they might have some control if the DM permits, such as those where the DM asks for wish lists, but this will vary by DM and cannot be assumed to be a given.

IMO, the only solution to this issue is to bake that power into the class itself. Either by giving high level fighters inherently mythical capabilities, or by allowing high level fighters to imbue ordinary items with magic (which amounts to the same thing with different fluff).

 

[Minigiant]

An interesting idea, but I don't think it solves the root issue. The problem, as I see it, isn't that the fighter can only attune to the same number of items as a wizard. Rather, it is that the fighter is heavily dependent on obtaining (useful) magic items (whereas the wizard is not). And obtaining useful magic items is not something players have any control regarding by default. In some games they might have some control if the DM permits, such as those where the DM asks for wish lists, but this will vary by DM and cannot be assumed to be a given.

IMO, the only solution to this issue is to bake that power into the class itself. Either by giving high level fighters inherently mythical capabilities, or by allowing high level fighters to imbue ordinary items with magic (which amounts to the same thing with different fluff).

• Give the Fighter Mjolnir and Belt of Giant's Strength
• Stop playing before the Fighter needs Mjolnir and Belt of Giant's Strength
• Don't use monsters and obstacles that need Mjolnir and Belt of Giant's Strength to solve
• Get Fighters a Mjolnir class feature and Belt of Giant's Strength class feature
• Make a Thor or Hercules class
• Let Fighters craft Mjolnir and Belt of Giant's Strength

 

[Aldarc]

An interesting idea, but I don't think it solves the root issue. The problem, as I see it, isn't that the fighter can only attune to the same number of items as a wizard. Rather, it is that the fighter is heavily dependent on obtaining (useful) magic items (whereas the wizard is not). And obtaining useful magic items is not something players have any control regarding by default. In some games they might have some control if the DM permits, such as those where the DM asks for wish lists, but this will vary by DM and cannot be assumed to be a given.

IMO, the only solution to this issue is to bake that power into the class itself. Either by giving high level fighters inherently mythical capabilities, or by allowing high level fighters to imbue ordinary items with magic (which amounts to the same thing with different fluff).

I agree but I am skeptical if the root issue can be adequately addressed in 5e's framework without backlash. "Solutions" may require designing around the root issue rather than addressing it head-on.

 

[Thunder Brother]

I really hope that the 2024 edition, if it makes any substantial changes, gives Fighters maneuvers as a class-wide feature, with subclasses getting special maneuvers based on their archetype. The Fighter being mechanically dull as hell is, in my opinion, a big problem.

I would also comb through the spell list and rebalance some powerful options, move some spells up or down a level, and maybe outright remove some of the poorly balanced option (I hope the conjure spells get dumped).

 

[Fanaelialae]

Let me put it this way. The fighter's dilemma is akin to if wizards lost the ability to automatically add spells of levels 6+ to their spell books. Imagine if for spell levels 6-9, a wizard was entirely dependent on scavenging scrolls and spell books. Maybe they find lots of high level spells. Maybe they find no high level spells. Maybe they find some high level spells, but not the ones they want. What would that do to the efficacy of wizards?

The only difference being that the fighter class can't really lose what it never explicitly had. Despite the fighter "Christmas tree" being an assumption of the game since the earliest days (IIRC, the early treasure tables were even more biased towards rewarding magic items for fighters than they are now).

Wizards in the earlier editions had far less guaranteed access to spells than they do today. Even if you found a spell, you still had to pass a check based on your intelligence to be able to use that spell (off the top of my head, I think an 18 Int only had something like a 65% chance). If you failed, you had to wait until next level to try again (and the time between levels in those days was loooong; also we had to walk uphill both ways over broken glass with no shoes, but that's neither here nor there). Those limitations were removed from wizards in later editions, but a fighter's reliance on randomly distributed magic items has never been directly addressed by the rules.

 

[Lanefan]

I know wizard players would find anything that limited their access to magic abhorrent, but this post has me wondering what a system would like that limited magic item attunement based upon your spell access. The more spell access you have in terms of spell level, the less magic item attunement you have. So the more non-magical you are, the more magic items you can use. Have it be a trade-off. hocus pocus justification Maybe the character's personal ability to channel and cast magic interferes with magic items?

You might be on to something there.

But would you even play that 5e attrition game when you - from what I understand - use only your homebrewed 1e game?

And will until-unless the "official" game gives me reason to adopt it. During playtest I had some hope 5e would be that version with its talk of modularity and the promised ability to emulate any prior edition, but alas 'twas not to be; so all I can do is argue against changes that would take it even further away.

 

[Lanefan]

Wizards in the earlier editions had far less guaranteed access to spells than they do today. Even if you found a spell, you still had to pass a check based on your intelligence to be able to use that spell (off the top of my head, I think an 18 Int only had something like a 65% chance).

Looked it up - 18 Int is 85%. 16 Int is 65%.

If you failed, you had to wait until next level to try again (and the time between levels in those days was loooong; also we had to walk uphill both ways over broken glass with no shoes, but that's neither here nor there). Those limitations were removed from wizards in later editions, but a fighter's reliance on randomly distributed magic items has never been directly addressed by the rules.

The bolded being yet another reason why wizards got out of control in later editions.