D&D 5E How to "fix" (or at least help) the fighter/wizard dynamic. (+)

[Benjamin Olson]

I have to wonder, though, how many fighters change weapons like that anyway? It's been my experience that they only change if they get a better version of the weapon they already us (if then). Most people seem to stick to one or two weapons. Especially in 5e, when so few creatures have any sort of vulnerability or resistance to a particular type of weapon, and there are fairly few weapon traits anyway.

My martial characters tend to cycle between numerous weapons, but the system tends to work against it. It usually only really make sense when encounters are designed to frequently require cycling between melee, ranged, and throwable melee weapons.

It also helps if you're the only real weapons guy in the group such that multiple cool magic weapons land in your inventory.

 

[Benjamin Olson]

God I hate these threads. People whining about a problem that doesnt exist, or only exists because they allow it to.

There is no problem.

I mostly agree with you, but let's respect the + thread and leave them be about it.

 

[Flamestrike]

I mostly agree with you, but let's respect the + thread and leave them be about it.

I intend to, Its just getting tiresome seeing 'this' thread over and over again.

It's been discussed FFS and been proven not to be accurate.

 

[Minigiant]

I intend to, Its just getting tiresome seeing 'this' thread over and over again.

It's been discussed FFS and been proven not to be accurate.

It happens over and over because there are assumptions to the way D&D and 5eare designed to be played that are either not codified in the rules and not spoken out loud directly by the game.

Especially since 5e is heavily of rulings over rules and leaves hue chunks of the game up to interpretation by DMs even though there were unsaid expectations.

That's why @DND_Reborn 's poll has 5 options. Because the paradigm the game is built on is not in the books and left open to many options.

 

[Vaalingrade]

People keep trying to frame this as a damage dealing thing when, at least to me that has nothing to do with it. It's a lack of interesting things to do. Attack. Attack some more. Use a maneuver once if you have that that subclass, pop a subpar Draenai heal, attack.

Just give us some stuff to do that's not just a basic attack forever until the end of time. Different effects, maybe based on weapon, like you can knock people about with a hammer, or polevault and kick with or spin a polearm (don't care if that's how they worked historically), Robin hood trick shots with arrows; stuff like that.

Warlocks have a primary basic attack too, but they can modify knock-on effects with it on top of cantrips before you even get to spells proper.

 

[Lanefan]

If you want to remove the different "feel" between long-rest and short-rest classes, sure. Personally, I think it's nice to have some resources be encounter-based and some day-based, and to have different classes lean more or less toward either end of the scale.

A class whose resources are based on short rests, in a situation where those rests are frequent, feels more like Captain America and his "I can do this all day." And there's a certain coolness to that.

The problem with encounter-based design, though, is that it blows up any concept of long-term attrition and thus of parties having to make tough choices between pressing on while down or resting for long enough (overnight? a few days?) to also give the enemy time to refortify and recover. Unless, that is, you make the enemies all short-rest based as well, which could lead to a groundhog-day effect if the party and enemy are evenly matched: fight, both sides retreat, both sides short-rest and recover everything, fight again, both sides retreat, both sides short-rest .....

I'm thinking here of a party comprised of all short-rest classes, which I suspect would quickly become the highly-optimal choice were short-rest classes to be enhanced: the party would simply never run out of gas. Bleah.

By the time they get to Captain America superhero level none of this is much of an issue, but what you're suggesting would affect all the levels below that as well and make a gritty-style game very hard to sustain.

 

[RainOnTheSun]

There is an appealing way to prevent the "1-minute workday", thereby preventing mages from "going nova".

For most of a typical game, it takes about 15 standard encounters in order to gain enough experience points to advance to the next level.
View attachment 151319
15 encounters per level.

Meanwhile, the DMs Guide (page 84) expects 6 to 8 encounters per long rest.

In other words:

According to the math of the 5e gaming engine, there should be 2 long rests per level.



This is fantastically useful, with several important benefits.

• All rests are "short rests". 1-hour rests and 8-hour rests are both short rests, and the timing depends on the narrative.

• But 2 times per level, a player can choose to change any short rest into a long rest.

• The long rest can be 1-hour or 8-hours, whichever rest the player needs to use to gain the benefit of a long rest.

• The narrative can have 8 encounters in a single day, or 8 encounters in a year.

• Only the narrative matters when deciding if an encounter makes sense.

• The deep rest − the long rest − can happen in the middle of a busy dungeon.

• The players will avoid wasting their long rest, unless necessary.

• The "1-minute work day" will rarely happen, and mages will rarely go nova.

This is similar to the way that 13th Age does it, and in my experience it seems to work rather well.

 

[Vaalingrade]

The problem with encounter-based design, though, is that it blows up any concept of long-term attrition and thus of parties having to make tough choices between pressing on while down or resting for long enough (overnight? a few days?) to also give the enemy time to refortify and recover.

I'm thinking here of a party comprised of all short-rest classes, which I suspect would quickly become the highly-optimal choice were short-rest classes to be enhanced: the party would simply never run out of gas. Bleah.

By the time they get to Captain America superhero level none of this is much of an issue, but what you're suggesting would affect all the levels below that as well and make a gritty-style game very hard to sustain.

I thought you were going to name problems. That all sounds glorious.

 

[Lanefan]

I thought you were going to name problems. That all sounds glorious.

To me it sounds awful; in that both as player and DM I want a grittier game where attrition is a thing, recovery takes significant time, and resources matter. 5e as written is already way too generous; and the "gritty" options provided are a start but only a start.

Being able to chug along forever like a squadron of Energizer bunnies on steroids holds no appeal whatsoever...well, other than for a gonzo game on New Year's Day when nobody's sober anyway.

 

[Minigiant]

The whole problem is D&D itself isn't honest.

The base assumption of the D&D fighter is a Christmas Tree.

Your 11th level fighter is an above average humanoid with national recognized combat ability and is supposed to have:

1. A magic melee weapon
2. A backup magic melee weapon or a magic shield
3. A magic ranged weapon
4. A set of magic armor or an uncommon noncombat magic item
5. A common noncombat magic item
6. A bandolier of potions

The game doesn't outright say this. The community doesn't out right say this. But this is the assumption. 5e D&D attempts to be cute by saying "you don't need magic items" but it assumes if you don't use magic items, the DM doesn't use 75% of the monsters in the book over CR 9. Again, it is info not outright said. 5e lowered the "requirement" of magic items but the Christmas Tree Fighter is the assumption for mid and high level play.

However the Christmas Tree Fighter has Pro and Against factions. This is because different mediums of entertainment in the fantasy genre use Christmas Tree Fighters or don't. Anime typically doesn't. Novels typically do. Comics doesn't with a few noteable exceptions.. Older Cartoons do. New Cartoons is a mixed bag. Movies follow the source. Mythology does and doesn't at the same time. Wrestling doesn't.

This cases a debate based on the type of media you might prefer (and how old you are).

So the Options are

1. Accept the Christmas Tree Fighter
2. Stop play before the Christmas Tree Fighter is turned on
3. Create Christmas Tree and Innate versions of the Fighter
4. Create a new class that doesn't rely on the Christmas Tree effect
5. Something else