D&D 5E How to have a constructive conversation with players?

[Triumphruin]

Thanks for all the advice, to better explain myself, I want to finish the module partially out of bloody-mindedness, and partly because I do enjoy some elements and visuals of the adventure, even if the structure is crushingly dull. I was planning on talking to the group about my concerns, but I was concerned I'd just get noncommittal and placative answers, either out of fear of not having a game anymore, or a genuine uncertainty as to their own issues.
My second concern is one of prep, as the main reason I was running the book was the ease of prep. I have very little confidence in my ability to improv content or make content of my own ahead of time, and previous games I've run as very quickly dried up for ideas on my part. This makes me kinda leery of solutions involving pivoting hard from the campaign's core content, as I fear the game will quickly fizzle out when I hit a creative wall.
I'm going to give my players notice for a feedback session/future discussion now, and hopefully that'll help us reach some kind of good conclusion on what the path forward is.

 

[TheSword]

Eventyr games on DMs Guild provides a really good overview of how to make the Avernus section that you’re about to start more of a sandbox. It’s well worth spending the $10 for the advice, battlemaps of all the locations, monster stats, more interesting devils and much more. I’m almost tempted to run it again for a different group to see if this improves it.

I like some of the Alexandrian’s advice but the way it is delivered is a bit to patronizing and scathing for my liking. critiquing someone else’s product is always a lot easier than writing one yourself! I don’t mind seeing the criticism, just prefer reading it in the context that the campaign writers aren’t 12, and aren’t learning their craft at the feet of the Alexandrian.

I prefer the WOC certified add on products that Eventyr Games produces.

 

[robus]

If I was re-running the campaign - and I’m tempted too one day with a more experienced group - then I would add a prelude in Elturel that introduces the city at its peak, explaining the Companion. ake a much bigger deal of the devil worship in chapter One and the commitment. I’d run the defense of Elturel as a points scoring - defend the city under siege scenario - with the PCs taking charge of defense.

This is where I feel WotC utterly fails in setting the stakes of their campaigns. They give PCs absolutely no investment in the stakes, just assuming that a big sign saying "Ride Starts Here!" will be enough to get them on board. A big adventure book like this absolutely needs to follow the pattern of the hero's journey. Let the PCs get settled into the normal world (Elturel at its height as you say), then upend it and put things they now care about in jeopardy and have them adventure to set things to rights.

Anyway, to the OP: I feel your pain.

 

[Triumphruin]

I'm already using the Eventyr stuff, so I'll give it another look over, and read over the Alexandrian's write-up as well. I think I'd been to brainless loyal to text, or too worried about not having sufficient reference to hand on game day to make more use of Eventyr's changes up until now, which was probably for the worse.

 

[robus]

My second concern is one of prep, as the main reason I was running the book was the ease of prep. I have very little confidence in my ability to improv content or make content of my own ahead of time, and previous games I've run as very quickly dried up for ideas on my part. This makes me kinda leery of solutions involving pivoting hard from the campaign's core content, as I fear the game will quickly fizzle out when I hit a creative wall.

Absolutely been here. I've found prepping for WotC's adventures much harder than it should be, mostly because the "why" of things is frequently absent (and their dungeon maps are frequently non-sensical). I found that actually making up my own stuff helped a ton with making up additional content on the fly as needed because the world was now living in my head rather than on a page.

So I'd try looking at the adventure in a new light. Read through it with an eye to making the adventure your own. What's cool? Keep it. What's bizarre? Drop it. What do you think is going on? And why are the NPCs doing what they're doing? Once you have a good grip on your version of events you'll be much less worried about checking WotC's tedious boxes and jumping through their hoops and instead be having fun and running the game the way you want.

It takes a leap of faith, but, IMHO, the rewards are an improved sense of fun and of accomplishment.

 

[billd91]

Maybe Im just being naive but at a $50 MSRP for an adventure written by "professionals" one should have to do little to no rewriting to have it make sense.

You are being naive, unfortunately. There's far more diversity in gaming groups than WotC could ever have professionals write for and sell for only $50. What makes sense for some people, doesn't for others. The Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan? I've known that's a tournament module since I started playing D&D, so its form in the Yawning Portal makes perfect sense to me. To someone who doesn't have that knowledge, it might not.

 

[TheSword]

I'm already using the Eventyr stuff, so I'll give it another look over, and read over the Alexandrian's write-up as well. I think I'd been to brainless loyal to text, or too worried about not having sufficient reference to hand on game day to make more use of Eventyr's changes up until now, which was probably for the worse.

That’s good. To be honest the pdf of how to run Avernus as a sandbox is the single most useful piece of the Eventyr collection. It is an absolute no-brainer.

 

[Baldurs_Underdark]

Thanks for all the advice, to better explain myself, I want to finish the module partially out of bloody-mindedness, [...]

That sounds a little like you are trying to justify your own sunk-cost fallacy.

[...] and partly because I do enjoy some elements and visuals of the adventure, even if the structure is crushingly dull. I was planning on talking to the group about my concerns, but I was concerned I'd just get noncommittal and placative answers, either out of fear of not having a game anymore, or a genuine uncertainty as to their own issues. [...]

All the adventures are written with nice details. Those are actually easy to copy-paste into your own adventure, although I personally find it a lot easier to write my own stuff. It's not difficult to write some details of your own city, with pubs, shops and a few NPCs.

It sounds a little like you try to stay in a relation only because your partner is pretty, but is in fact a dull or even nasty person on the inside. My advice would be to run away!

My second concern is one of prep, as the main reason I was running the book was the ease of prep. I have very little confidence in my ability to improv content or make content of my own ahead of time, and previous games I've run as very quickly dried up for ideas on my part. This makes me kinda leery of solutions involving pivoting hard from the campaign's core content, as I fear the game will quickly fizzle out when I hit a creative wall.
I'm going to give my players notice for a feedback session/future discussion now, and hopefully that'll help us reach some kind of good conclusion on what the path forward is.

So, here we get to the core. You have no plan B, and you think that you need a plan B before abandoning plan A.

Here's my tip(s):
Start talking to your friends in a session zero, for a potential new campaign (no promises that you will do it).

• Style of game (roleplay vs hack-and-slash vs discovery, and also sandbox vs more guidance)
• Which type of characters (chaotic, lawful, team-mates or a bunch of chaotic suicide squad)
• Perhaps which classes? If they all want to play Conan the Barbarian, then the story is pretty much writing itself.
• Ask your players how they know each other. Let that not be your problem. Instead, let that be inspiration for you as DM.
• Style of world? (Lighthearted, or doom-and-gloom)?
• Check with the players: Ideal length of the session, and ideal time to play? (I've been in a session where the cleric was never really engaged - turned out she was just not an evening person and got tired after 21:30).

Once you know what everybody wants to play, you can search for a way to get there. But it seems that you don't know what plan B is, and all you see are obstacles with no dot on the horizon to aim for.

I DM a campaign that costs me about 2-3 hrs of preparation for each session (sessions are also 2-3 hrs). So, my time investment is double that of the play-time. I cannot believe that it is much less using the books. You still gotta own that world if you are the DM.

Now, if you DM it by just opening the book and figuring out what happens (i.e. almost no prep time), then that may be your problem. You don't own that world. Then I am sorry, but then you are not the DM - you are just the messenger and the book is your mindless DM.

 

[TheSword]

Believe it or not I have an entire game group who has never played the Balurs Gate computer games. I’m looking at the practicality of having a party of Bhaalspawn. Have Saverok be working with Kreeg to see all the cities of the Sword Coast dragged into hell and then ascend as the new god of Murder. Just trying to work out how it could work. Will post something when I get chance.

 

[robus]

I DM a campaign that costs me about 2-3 hrs of preparation for each session (sessions are also 2-3 hrs). So, my time investment is double that of the play-time. I cannot believe that it is much less using the books. You still gotta own that world if you are the DM.

Now, if you DM it by just opening the book and figuring out what happens (i.e. almost no prep time), then that may be your problem. You don't own that world. Then I am sorry, but then you are not the DM - you are just the messenger and the book is your mindless DM.

This is pretty blunt but I think it hits the mark. The published adventures cannot be run as written and provide the DM much joy in the process. I've learned this lesson the hard way. They are not an expressway to a fun campaign as one might imagine. I think WotC isn't helping by overcomplicating their adventures but it is also impossible to run an adventure as written because the players don't naturally follow the plot (because they don't know anything about it) and to force them to stick to the plot as written just turns it into the joyless slog the OP is experiencing.

You have to embrace the adventure and make it your own. Know why things are happening and when. If WotC's plot doesn't thrill you, throw it out and come up with something better suited. It's not ideal, but it is what it is.