How to keep demons out of harm's way in the Abyss?

[jvdburgt]

Okay, I popped up this question under another thread where it didn't really belong, so I just created this new thread for this purpose.

My question is this:
In our current campaign I'm playing an Apostle of Peace (beguiler8/AoP1). Although the rest of my party isn't as peaceful as I like them to be, we've pretty much settled for "violence only in self-defense" and not killing-off helpless/defeated enemies. In practice I usually count my blessings if I managed to have 1 or 2 adversaries still alive after a battle.

Now this has worked out quite well so far, and up till now we were more or less successful in handing over defeated enemies to the appropriate authorities (no problem in Sigil) or - without my character knowing it - killing them behind my back on one occasion.

Problem is, as things are now, we're probably heading to the Abyss in a short while. Even in that environment my goal - of course - is to prevent violence and preventable deaths as much as I can (which should work even better once I level up and get my "pacifying touch". Since we won't have the luxury of visiting Sigil after every single battle we'll manage to get ourselves into, what am I to do with all these demons I'm hoping to keep alive?

As far as I know, there aren't that many prisons in the Abyss that (a) would take a demon just because we say so, and (b) won't harm them even if they did.

So, what I'm looking for is a creative solution to this problem that's in line with my character's belief (though shall not harm, nor let unnecessary harm come to others), though that is still practical for a party that probably isn't waiting to end up with dozens of captured demons to tag along.

Any thoughts/ideas would be most welcome!

PS. Some dretches I think we'll manage, and would even present some nice roleplaying opportunities, however I think it'll quickly become a problem if we have one or two high level demons to worry about (i'd love to buy some truly amazing demon-shackels, but that would upset my Vow of Poverty, and I don't think I'll be able to convince my party to buy em for their own sake)...

 

[ahayford]

I didn't think killing a demon actually "killed" them. Don't they just get disrupted and reform some time later? Or do I have my cosmologies confused.

 

[Greenfield]

Killing a summoned creature simply sends it back where it came from. Killing a Demon on its home plane is usually pretty final.

But if you want to take them down without killing the? I thing Flesh to Stone works. Follow up with Shrink Item for convenient transport and storage.

 

[Dozen]

Imprisoning demons? That's not merciful, that's the most twisted act of malevolence I heard of in a long time. Those guys would rather die and join their essence with their home plane than to be tied down against their will without a chance to have fun for a single minute, let alone infinity. Hell(pun intended), with those natural weapons they sport, they'd kill themselves in the most gory way possible to also leave a great mess as a last middle finger. I'm not saying they don't deserve it, but I'd be standing on your gung-ho party members' side if you presented a choice between killing them or taking them captive. Talking Lower Planes, most Layers of the Abyss present the worst picks if you want to take prisoners.
Though I have to say most, because there are exceptions. For instance, 229th Layer, the infamous Plane of Whores. (Didn't take Vow of Chastity, did you?) Bring 'em sleazies over to the Church of Lastai, the clerics will be more than happy to handle them both ways.
On the off chance your DM would send you somewhere else(For what reason, I ask of you?!), focus on protecting the party or convince them to visit a different plane instead. Why are you guys going down there mid-level, anyway?

 

[jvdburgt]

I do have a vow of chastity actually
As for visiting the abyss, that's pretty much the point of our campaign (demonweb pits).

As for "the humane solution" you propose, can an apostle of peace accept a merci-kill (on a creature's own request when having to choose between imprisonment and death)? I'm inclined to say 'yes'...

 

[Dozen]

I have to agree.

I'm curious about how your fellow players are handling your unorthodox adventuring ways, by the way. We can't discuss that here, but you can PM me, so long it's not a bother, of course.

 

[jvdburgt]

[MENTION=6698275]Dozen[/MENTION]: well, why not here, see it as context-information for the main question

How are my fellow players handling this? From the perspective of the characters:
Generally as soon as battle start I seek to defuse it, mostly with some carefully placed solid fogs followed up by some pacifying action such as my aura of peace or some mind of charm spell. The ones that remain fighting are pretty much dealt with by my fellow characters. After a few battles so far the idea is that we kinda agree that whenever someone is not really a threat anymore, he's left alone (or grappled or whatever). We do have some sometimes have some disagreement still about what exactly constitutes "not a threat" (my Apostle has higher standards than the mere RAW "helpless" as I see running away as "not a threat" as well). So every now and than I use illusion or instant spells like "stay the hand" to prevent either enemies or allies from striking when I feel the battle is practically over.

Of course this sometimes annoys them

In practice
- Our main muscle is a CG werewolf with an insanely high will save, so he's not really bothered by my aura of peace, or any other enchantment I might throw at him.
- Our 2nd muscle is our CG druid who is sometimes affected by my aura or interventions, but he's got plenty of other stuff to pull out of his hat that is not violent (summoning, buffing)
- Then we got a mindbender kinda psion who's own approach is pretty non-violent (he lets his thralls and hencemen do that, and he isn't bothered when I interfere with them)
- Then we have a warlock who's mostly out of my reach (in the air) dispelling and throwing in a blast now and then (mostly when the battle is pretty much ended, but he hadn't quite figured that out yet).

That's about it, however annoyed they are with my character, they pretty much let me stabilize dying enemies and tag them along for a (short) ride to the nearest prison. As much as they don't agree with my handling of things (and as annoyed as they are by my random solid fogs) they have seen the added value of my peaceful approach in more than one situation by now.

As for the perspective of the players:
- First and foremost, having an Apostle in your party is a roleplaying challenge; one that can be (and is) very satisfactorily and brings up a lot of party dynamic;
- Second, we kinda found a way where my Apostle is not frustratingly disruptive. Basically I do my thing without intentionally thwarting my fellow players, but I may still unintentionally thwart them ("I walk up to the demon and - oh, I'm sorry, are you in my aura of peace"-kind a way). I only target my own fellows with instant spells when (in my eyes) the battle is pretty much over and there not in great danger anymore anyhow. Both in-game and out of game I know there is a certain limit as to how often I can do that before I start to annoy both characters and players. Luckily, both my character and myself are quit aware of that . And, of course, they kinda of looking for any chance to get back at my character by annoying him whenever they can - with or without him knowing (Mindbender: "Yeah, my henchman will bring this creature to the prison", after which he telepathically orders him to kill the creature once out of sight)

So, long story short: it truly brings a new (roleplaying) dimension to the game, as well as some pretty funny philosophical discussions. Can't wait to go to the Abyss

 

[Greenfield]

Imprisoning demons is no easy task. Many have Improved Teleport, at will.

And I have to ask, since when did a prisoner's hatred of imprisonment keep us from putting one in prison? If he/she/it wants to kill itself later, that's their choice.

You want to keep them on ice? Flesh to Stone or Baleful Polymorph come to mind immediately.

In one game world I ran in, there was an Elven nation, an entire river valley that was their country, purely. And they didn't believe in killing prisoners. Their most serious punishment was "Life and Liberty". That is, the prisoner was Baleful Polymorphed into a non-predator animal and turned loos in a special game preserve. No hunting allowed. The preserve had a warding around it that prevented Evil creatures from entering or leaving.

If/when a person/prisoner stopped being Evil, they could leave the preserve, and would be restored to their natural form. So their sentence was variable, based purely on their ability to reform.

The transformation wasn't purely the BP spell. It involved aspects of Bestow Curse, in that the transformation would end on its own when they changed alignment. (I'm a big fan of Frog/Prince type of transformations, where the subject knows how to end the curse, and it isn't necessarily anything magical.)

That spell admixture also handled the issue of creatures with the Shapechanger sub-type, who can normally reverse most transformation spells more or less at will. This one, they can't.

As for your problem though, my answer is, screw 'em. They don't get a say about whether or not they're made prisoner. Your vow is to not kill, not to never hurt their feelings.

 

[jvdburgt]

[MENTION=6669384]Greenfield[/MENTION]: as much as I love (really really do!) you're peaceful meadow solution. My beguiler8/apostle1 does not (by far) has access to these kind of spells, nor does the druid. I would buy the scrolls, but my vow of poverty gets in the way, and my party members - i fear - will not be persuaded to buy em themselves... looking for pretty much low-tech McGuyver-style solutions here

 

[Empirate]

You know, this might present a great roleplaying opportunity for you, IF you're willing to stray from your path a little.

I imagine an Apostle of Peace traveling to the Abyss. And what I'm seeing is not an angelic figure bringing peace and an end to suffering - what I'm seeing is a mere human being with his values and convictions, who is all of a sudden confronted by the most primal forces of pure malevolence, the essence of what it means to want to hurt, twist and destroy other beings, the core and the root of all that is selfish and intentionally horrible.

The Abyss isn't just a place. It is one of the most powerful aspects of everything that is alive in all the worlds. It reaches out and touches a destructive, foul, and usually shamefully hidden fiber of every creature in the multiverse. If you confront it, it will confront you.

So what happens when an Apostle of Peace goes into this darkness? Will he be able to keep to his vows - or will they suddenly seem petty, meaningless, very far away indeed, in the face of the overwhelming hatred which makes up everything that exists in the Abyss?

Demons are not creatures that can be mended. They cannot be led into the light by a single human being's shining example. Peace, solace, forgiveness, have no meaning to them. And the same is true for everything and everyone you are likely to encounter in the Abyss.

The only thing you can hope for is keeping yourself and the sense of who and what you are together. And even that may be difficult. What you are in for is not an Apostle's quest to uphold Peace - it is a quest not to forget that Peace might still be out there, somewhere, if not here. Sure, your character will want to keep even the demons alive. It is the sheer futility of his striving that might make for a powerful story here.

If you ever wanted to play a 'fallen' former force for good, or a doubting believer in danger of losing his faith, or a person who is slowly going insane as his unalterable conviction clashes with the similarly undeniable existence of its negation - then this is your chance!