D&D 3E/3.5 How to make a 3.5 monk with western flavor?

[domino]

Just a thought I had, since it seems like pretty much every monk in every tabletop game is an Eastern monk. Based on the Shao Lin monks, practicing martial arts, wearing their robes or similarly styled clothing, with heavily wushu based abilities (slow fall, abundant step, quivering palm, for example) and even their weapons have that particular theme.

But it's not like all the monks in Europe only made wine or copied books. There were warrior monks, and many times even those who weren't dedicated warrior monks knew at least some defensive skills. Friar Tuck, by definition wasn't a monk, but knew his way around a club or quarterstaff, and the main difference was that he wasn't cloistered.

So, what say you? I think most of the stuff can stay, the AC bonus, the unarmed damage, maybe the fast movement and flurry of blows. But maybe not to the last two.

The resistance and immunities I think can stay, because they can be part of the meditation of any monk community, control over the body, whatever. The obviously supernatural abilities I think don't fit though.

Opinions? What can be changed with just fluff? What is part of a specifically Eastern flavor monk? What would need to be added to compensate? Or do you think there's no real problem trying to play a European monk with the class abilities of a standard monk?

 

[Dandu]

I'd just use a Cloistered Cleric and be done with it.

 

[Wyvernhand]

Western Monks are Human Expert 1-2s with max ranks in Knowledge: Religion and Perform: Sermon, possibly with feats spent on Skill Focus: Knowledge Religion, or even Endurance for pulling all-nighters transcribing holy texts.

Except for the ones who invented perfected beer. They had max ranks in Profession: Brewer, or possibly Craft: Ale and Beer.

What? You wanted a monk to be a PC?

If you want a western hand-to-hand expert like John McClain, I'd say a Human Warblade X with Imp UAS and Superior Unarmed Strike focusing in Iron Heart, with a little bit of Tiger Claw. Take away a fool's knife with your bare hands? There's a strike for that. Jump from a roof and kick a fool in the head? There's a strike for that. Overcome fatigue, wounds, and divorce? BY CROM!!!! there's a maneuver for that. Shoot down a helicopter with a car? I wish there was a strike for that...

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Dandu's basically right.

The warrior monks of the West were, almost without exception, warriors who took vows. They were armed, armored, horsed and not all that different from their knightly counterparts who hadn't taken those vows.

The Friar Tucks of the world may have been handy with a cudgel or staff, but it was more out of an individual desire to defend one's self, not a formal warrior monk tradition. Whatever weapon training they had, they picked up along the way.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Alternatively, you could just do the martial arts thing, but with a western flavor.

Pankration - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ancient Greek boxing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Jimlock]

IMHO, Monks is the offspring of "stupid game design". ...But let me explain.

Clerics, Priests, and Monks are all men of faith. This means that they should

ALL be divine spellcasters. Now for some stupid reason I cannot understand,

the monk is not a divine spellcaster. The Shao Lin monks (which are clearly

the inspiration for the Monk class), were/are just as faithful to their gods/beliefs,

as the western monks were to their own, and they are/were just as priests/clerics as

the western ones are/were. Yet the western monk is represented in the game more

with the cleric base class, than with the monk, while the eastern monk is represented in the game

with the monk base class.

(The one draws powers for his god, while other doesn't!!! (???) I'd dare say that this is racism!!!)



...So if you really want to play a western monk, cleric is right class for you.

In fact, ALL monks should go under cleric. It doesn't make any cense whatsoever, that a monk, a man with

an equally strong faith and devotion to his god as the cleric (if not even stronger!), does not receive divine powers

from his god!!!

And while I think the Monk class is interesting, I think the major

problem with it, is it's name. It might have been a theme-braker,

but IMO "ninja' or something... would have been far more appropriate...



EDIT: NO offense to you Monk lovers out there!

As I said, the Monk, as a class, is a rather interesting martial class... it's just that the name is SO wrong in respect

to the game mechanics and the cleric base class...

 

[Aus_Snow]

Truth is, the "Monk" doesn't make any sense anyway.

That aside, you could always try the Bruiser, or something like it (maybe you'd like to change or add a few things).

Personally, I would never be without armour unless I had to, and likewise, weapons. It's just stupid.

If you really want a class that will work for "the medieval West", forget about warriors without arms or armour. Sure, just about every fighter, knight, etc., will have unarmed skills (they did, for the most part) but they would always rather use anything that gives them an advantage, and the fact is, weapons (and armour) will, every time.

So, depends how important various things might be, to you and your campaign setting(s).

 

[Empirate]

The whole idea of fighting unarmed because it's in some crazy way more awesome than fighting with a weapon is just a whacky pop culture reference, and a long shot from how things might actually work in a real fight (and the same goes for fighting unarmored).
If you want unarmed guys going toe-to-toe with armed and armored warriors and win, fine. Warblade does that (as has been mentioned above), Unarmed Swordsage does it as well, the Monk class does it (badly). So it's in the game, mechanically.

And that's really all there is in the game: mechanics. Forget all about fluff, find the set of mechanics you like, add in whatever fluff you want to come up with, and you're done. You don't need fluff mirrored in class abilities for the game to work well - in fact, in many cases the other way around functions way better.

Fluff Examples:
Your warrior monks are descended from dragons and learn to fight like their ancestors, using their limbs and awesome strength to crush, claw, and even bite their foes.
Your warrior monks are Jedi who channel the Force into unarmed combat.
Your warrior monks are crazy lunatics who inspire such a feeling of "aw, !" in their opponents that they can actually fight even armed ones.
Your warrior monks are peaceful Aikido masters - so advanced are their techniques that they don't fear to walk even into combat with foes clad in steel.
Your warrior monks are religious fanatics, and the cuts, bruises and other wounds they receive by blocking maces and axes with their forearms and shins are healed instantly by their god - as are their fingers, which are crushed on a regular basis (from striking fully armed knights with enough force to crack their ribs).
Your warrior monks have minor shapeshifting powers, transforming part of their limbs into iron for split seconds on impact.
Your warrior monks don't fight unarmed, but use lots of unlikely, improvised weapons instead: rolled up newspapers, sets of eyeglasses, ballpens, maybe a piece of rock once in a while.

Etc. All of these can be modeled mechanically by using the Warblade, Swordsage, Fighter, even Monk classes, with the right set of feats.



One more thing: as a medieval historian I feel obliged to add that there were no warrior monks in medieval Europe.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Etc. All of these can be modeled mechanically by using the Warblade, Swordsage, Fighter, even Monk classes, with the right set of feats.

Don't forget the Oriental Adventures Shaman (especially after it's 3.5Ee update in Dragon#317).

 

[Celebrim]

IMHO, Monks is the offspring of "stupid game design". ...But let me explain.

Clerics, Priests, and Monks are all men of faith. This means that they should

ALL be divine spellcasters. Now for some stupid reason I cannot understand,

the monk is not a divine spellcaster. The Shao Lin monks (which are clearly

the inspiration for the Monk class), were/are just as faithful to their gods/beliefs,

as the western monks were to their own, and they are/were just as priests/clerics as

the western ones are/were. Yet the western monk is represented in the game more

with the cleric base class, than with the monk, while the eastern monk is represented in the game

with the monk base class.

Although I don't necessarily agree with where you go with that, there is some truth to the general complaint.

I think the root cause is that there is a strong tendency of many players/DM's to filter Cleric through the lens of a Christian priesthood, so that it takes on large numbers of trappings that are very particular to the Christian religion and not necessarily to religion generally.

So for example, there is a tendency to attribute all of the following to the class of cleric generally:

1) They are men of Faith, either at the superficial atheistic level of 'believing in the deity' or the more naunced theistic understanding of faith as 'believing in the benevolence and power of the deity'.
2) They are pious and devoted servants of their deity.
2) They are miracle workers whose power comes directly from a deity or his intermediary as a result of their empowering Faith or faithfulness.
3) They are evangelists promoting belief in their deity and service of the deity.
4) Members of some organized religion.

None of those things in fact has anything to do with the cleric class as described they are just things we think of if we aren't careful when we think of Cleric. It's not that any may necessarily not be true for a particular cleric or particular in game religion, it's that none of those need be true. So that conversely, a cleric in game may be:

1) Men who have through study knowledge of the esoteric characteristics of the deity.
2) Shrewd practicioners of ritual who bargain with and trick the deity or his servants.
3) Magicians whose power comes from using their knowledge to empose their will on the deity or who recieve power from the deity as a result of esoteric bargains.
4) Hoarders of secret knowledge so as to better leverage their power over the masses.
5) Isolated practicioners.

Personally I think western Monk should go under Fighter or Expert. Western monks are by definition laity and not clergy.

I hate the Monk class for a whole host of reasons. However, I think that the question is flaws, since by and large the religion of most game worlds is not supposed to be either 'eastern' or 'western'. Pick classes that fit with your game world and if you want to include a class, figure out what it means within your game world.