D&D 3.x How to make a 3.5 monk with western flavor?

[slwoyach]

It's called a paladin.

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

Shoot down a helicopter with a car? I wish there was a strike for that...

Hm.. if someone could animate a volkswagen beetle, sic it at you, than you could use the Setting Sun Ballista Throw and hurl it at a helicopter that was within 60'. According to RAW. "Up" counts as a direction for "throw him in a 60' line" right?

 

[Mark CMG]

 

[Jimlock]

Although I don't necessarily agree with where you go with that,

I hope this is not an innuendo, by which you imply that I took a jab at religion (Christianity in particular). I only say this because we have crossed our blades in the past ...on matters of religion.

So in case this is such an Innuendo, let me clarify that I had no such intent. Moreover my post was not insulting to religion in any way. I will repeat (perhaps one time too many in this forum) that the fact that I'm an a atheist, has nothing to do with my views on the game and its deities.

In case I misinterpreted your phrase, I apologize, and let's assume I never said the above.


So... regarding clerics and monks...

I think the root cause is that there is a strong tendency of many players/DM's to filter Cleric through the lens of a Christian priesthood, so that it takes on large numbers of trappings that are very particular to the Christian religion and not necessarily to religion generally.

So for example, there is a tendency to attribute all of the following to the class of cleric generally:

1) They are men of Faith, either at the superficial atheistic level of 'believing in the deity' or the more naunced theistic understanding of faith as 'believing in the benevolence and power of the deity'.
2) They are pious and devoted servants of their deity.
2) They are miracle workers whose power comes directly from a deity or his intermediary as a result of their empowering Faith or faithfulness.
3) They are evangelists promoting belief in their deity and service of the deity.
4) Members of some organized religion.

None of those things in fact has anything to do with the cleric class as described they are just things we think of if we aren't careful when we think of Cleric. It's not that any may necessarily not be true for a particular cleric or particular in game religion, it's that none of those need be true. So that conversely, a cleric in game may be:

1) Men who have through study knowledge of the esoteric characteristics of the deity.
2) Shrewd practicioners of ritual who bargain with and trick the deity or his servants.
3) Magicians whose power comes from using their knowledge to empose their will on the deity or who recieve power from the deity as a result of esoteric bargains.
4) Hoarders of secret knowledge so as to better leverage their power over the masses.
5) Isolated practicioners.

I think you are missing one key aspect of the clerics here. Clerics "pray" to receive the "blessings" of the deity.
And by that "prayer" I understand that there is always "faith" involved in the process.
Whatever that cleric might be, it is only natural to assume that there is some degree of "spiritual-connection" between
the mortal and the deity. Commoners may pray as well, but they have not attained the level of spiritual connection a cleric has.

Specifically:

1) Men who have through study knowledge of the esoteric characteristics of the deity.

This "sturdy knowledge" as you call it, is not sufficient for one to call the powers of the deity. Many historians, scholars
wizards, warriors and rogues even, in the D&D world have thorough knowledge of one or more deities.
They even have thorough knowledge of the "esoteric characteristics" of the deities, as you call them, but they are far from being clerics.

2) Shrewd practicioners of ritual who bargain with and trick the deity or his servants.
3) Magicians whose power comes from using their knowledge to empose their will on the deity or who recieve power from the deity as a result of esoteric bargains.

A cleric who tricks or imposes his will on his deity? Not possible.
A cleric does not/cannot deceive his deity (and remain a cleric of that same deity - just like the Paladin).
As far as the cleric's approach to his "relationship" with the deity he believes in is concerned, there are no "lies & deceit" involved.
The other way around, it is highly possible. The deity (depending on it's alignment and portfolio) may "use" the believers as pawns, and get rid of them once it [the deity] attains it's goals. But again, this only works one way: From the deity to the mortal/cleric. A Cleric is always sincere and transparent in respect to his deity, and it is this sincerity and transparency, one of the components that builds up the connection with the deity. A connection that eventually leads to the mortal receiving powers from that same deity. If the cleric ceases to be truthful, honest and faithful in respect to his deity and it's portfolio, the connection is lost and he ceases to be a cleric of that specific deity. A cleric of Mask, might as well be an assassin, a lier, a deceiver... whatever have you... but NEVER does he use/employ the deity's portfolio against the deity...
The archetype you describe in none other than the Wizard. The Wizard is the one who is able to act entirely on his own, able to defy the very gods and even take their place. A fine example is Raistlin Majere in Dragonlance, Karsus in the Forgotten Realms... all settings and fantasy novels are full of such examples, and it is always done/attempted by wizards, for if there is one class that personifies human greed in fantasy settings, it's none other than the notorious wizard.

4) Hoarders of secret knowledge so as to better leverage their power over the masses.

Again, everything is filtered through the deity's portfolio. If the deity wants it, the cleric has to do it, or at least attempt to do it. If it's not the deity's will, the cleric ceases to be a cleric (and that is the least of punishments!). A cleric won't go searching for a way to control the masses if the deity does not believe in such acts. Even when he does it, he does it because it's the wish of his deity. His agenda, is the deity's agenda.

Ex-Clerics
A cleric who grossly violates the code of conduct required by his god (generally by acting in ways opposed to the god's alignment or purposes) loses all spells and class features, except for armor and shield proficiencies and proficiency with simple weapons. He cannot thereafter gain levels as a cleric of that god until he atones (see the atonement spell description).

5) Isolated practitioners.

Clerics might be isolated from the mortal population,
but they are never isolated from their deities. Whatever they do and think, the deity knows.
A deity knows when a cleric is being true to his beliefs, and that is why it grands him powers.
The same way the deity knows that a cleric is not abiding to its beliefs, and takes the powers away (Ex Clerics).

Western monks are by definition laity and not clergy.

Western monks are NOT by definition laity and not clergy. Western monks are not NECESSARILY clergy.

Whatever the religion or deity, the Monks are people with strong faith and an equal, (if not stronger) "connection to the deity", with the clergy. Moreover there are certain eastern religions where the monks do not differentiate from the clergy.
Even a big number of the Christian Saints derive from Monks, which is to say that they are not lesser to the clergy, in respect to their faith or "connection" to their god.

These are the reasons that it makes no cense whatsoever, that the Monk class does not receive divine powers.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Western monks are by definition laity and not clergy.

Cistercians, Trappists, Dominicans and other orders are both monks AND clergy.

Back to the OP, though...

If you want a martial Monk with a martial tradition, reflavor the standard D&D Monk- or better yet, use the OA Shaman (with Dragon #317's 3.5Ed update)- using some of the history of the Jesuits.

Society of Jesus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

While they are NOT militaristic, their founder, Ignatius of Loyola, had a military background, and used some military terminology in his order's jargon, and earned them the nickname, "God's Marines."

Taking that and running: instead of staying in cloisters and big cities, each of your Western Monks- "The Order of __________"- is tasked individually with evangelizing the world by being exemplars of physical and mental perfection. To that end, they are well educated and are charged with educating others. They are expected to be in good shape, and do so through a regimen of rigorous exercise, hard labor, and martial training. This also helps them keep themselves safe in their travels.

If you're brave, build in some of the Vows from BoED- using the RAI/Spirit of the rules approach rather than the (IMHO, deeply flawed) RAW- in exchange for some of the Eastern flavored mysticism powers of the standard classes.

 

[domino]

Yeah, the main thing I was looking for was a Monk with some of the, in my opinion, more heavily wushu flavored powers replaced with something more appropriate. An unarmored, simple weapon fighter type. Though it seems the general consensus for working with the Monk class is, "don't."

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Well, there are a lot of other sources to be found in the Monk Database- link in my sig- which provide other 3.X martial artist types...as well as feats, etc.

 

[Celebrim]

Cistercians, Trappists, Dominicans and other orders are both monks AND clergy.

Err... I may be crazy, but I just looked and Wikipedia is backing me up on this. Catholic monastic orders are considered part of the laity. The order may contain within it clergy who serve the order in the way that a traditional priest would serve his congregation, but membership in the order in no way confers status on you as a member of the clergy. There may be some exceptions to this, as I'm not familiar with the rule of the many orders, but as a general rule I've always heard that the religious orders are laity. There is one obvious proof of this, in that many of the religious orders admit women, but women cannot be part of the Catholic clergy.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Wiki is waaaaaaay off on this one. Not ALL orders are priestly, but some are.

I'm a lifelong Catholic and I spent 4 years in a Catholic school run by Cistercian monks ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cistercian_Preparatory_School ), who did and still do take confessions and perform masses on a regular schedule, both for themselves and any Catholics who desire to participate. They've even performed marriages. And all of us Catholic students at the school went to Confession and Masses there regularly. They're definitely priests. Abbots of certain orders are considered to be co-equal in status with bishops- such as the Cistercian Abbots (and presumably, their Trappist "cousins" as well), though they do not have authority within the greater diocese beyond their own members.

Heck, the Wiki link I provided upthread about the Jesuits even points out that their order is mixed between priests and non-priests. Cistercians, too, have non-priestly members, namely the Cistercian Nuns. Not many of those, though.