How to make D&D playable (long)

[danzig138]

I think some of those are already the rules, some are common sense (really, a cleric can't cast any spell his deity doesn't want him to cast), and most of the rest seem unnecessary to me. Like the multiclass thing. Why? It is far to easy to restrict multiclassing in the game, so I don't think there needs to be another rules for it. And why remove True Resurrection? I don't know about you, but the party I ran never once came across a 5,000 gp diamond, from levels 1-8 (when they died). Cohort seems important to Leadership. If you have a problem with to many PCs with leadership, isn't that their choice to take it? Shouldn't punish them for it. Curious, what in-game reason do you have for the leadership change?
Honestly, if they work for you, fine. Not my cup of tea however. I think you should buckle down and have one DM. Multiple DMs doesn't seem to work well for you. If everyone wants to play, and you have multiple people who want to DM, try starting different campaigns. You can alternate every game session or two.
P.S. I have found D&D to be very playable, and with no real house rules.

 

[Doorf]

Like i said it not just my problem and it is not me the DM.
We have 7 ppl: 6 players +dm, every advanture DM changes to next person.
So it is not the question what i can do as DM but what we can do as Dangeon Masters.

So to avoid quarrels every time we changed rules.

If you are playing same way with rotative DM, i would like your comments if you did something similar ... what rules did you make to prevent abuses.

And if all ppl were trying to min/max it wouldbe 'ok', but we had 2 extremaly strong almost unkilable players and 4 weaker. Anything that could damage thouse 2 min/maxers would instantly kill all other 4.

We did this becouse every of those rules that was changed could and would be abused every time in new way. This helped to eliminated sometimes EXTREMALY huge diferences in power of diferent PC.

How were we able to buy diamond worth 5000gp ? using PHB spell cost+component cost. Teleport to capital + paying cash for spell+component.
Since levels 13+ 5000gp is not very much if you play by book and you use WotC Modules.

 

[Mark Chance]

Rotating GMs

If you are playing same way with rotative DM, i would like your comments if you did something similar ... what rules did you make to prevent abuses.

I've GMed extensively with groups that use rotating GMs. The best place to start is to actually play by the rules, which obviously has not been the case based on the sorts of scenarios you're describing.

This means it is incumbent that any would-be-GM on the rotation cycle actually know the rules.

If a GM doesn't know the rules, he's got no business trying to change them. With GM rotation, no rules change can be made without all the GMs approving the change.

These simple little guidelines have been all that I've ever needed.

 

[comrade raoul]

It seems to me that many of your problems come from rules from various supplements, like Magic of Faerun. Have you considered playing with _only_ the three pure core rulebooks (that is, the PH, DMG, and MM)? In my campaign, almost all of the material comes only from those three, core books. We make some minor changes, revise a few of the classes (specifically, the bard, cleric, and ranger) and add a few new feats (under 20 or so) and setting-specific prestige classes (only a dozen available prestige classes in all, further limited by a character's region, race, and so forth).

You'd be surprised at how much fun you have. It simplifies play a great deal -- there's no longer a mind-boggling array of special conditions, weird prestige classes, or unusual spells and feats. And most of the material in those books is very well balanced, and the few "problem areas" (Skill Focus, rangers, and so forth) have been so extensively discussed that a little bit of looking around should reveal some helpful fixes. There are also some significant thematic advantages -- the game doesn't feel bloated at all, and you get something closer to pure, classic D&D.

Also, I don't think you're invoking the DM's final word enough on multiclassing and item purchasing. Characters should be prohibited from munchkiny multiclassing that's implausible for the character and setting; and the "Ye Olde Magic Item Shoppe" is one of the really big mistakes in 3e.

This is actually one of my pet peeves. Purchasing magical items -- especially valuable magical items -- should be always be roleplayed and sometimes a minor adventure in itself. Every small town does not include a shop that includes every fantastically expensive magical goody that you can think of -- this is not only prone to abusive, it is also wildly implausible. A shopkeeper of a good weapon store in a medium-sized town or city might have picked up perhaps three or four enchanted blades over the years (all of them worth less than 5k), all of them carefully locked away in the backroom, their very existence revealed only to trusted customers. Anything more permissive invites theft or possible violence. Rare and powerful objects (worth more than 10k or so) should be available only in large cities (if at all), sold in super-high security auction houses or brokered among the secret, crime-ridden channels of the black market. Of course, only a fairly small number of items are available in a given city at a given time, and there is no guarantee that those items will be anything like what the PCs happen to want (in fact, it should be quite a coincidence to find exactly what one desires!). I should not decide I want a +2 keen, flaming burst scythe, bring my 50k to the nearest town, and pick it up posthaste.

 

[gpetruc]

Persistant time stop ??

If I remember well the TimeStop duration was errated to be "instantaneous" and so Persistant Spell cannot be applied to Time Stop.

 

[danzig138]

How were we able to buy diamond worth 5000gp ? using PHB spell cost+component cost. Teleport to capital + paying cash for spell+component.
Since levels 13+ 5000gp is not very much if you play by book and you use WotC Modules.

No, 5kgp isn't a lot at 13+ levels, but if I understand you correctly, you're saying you simply pay the 5,000 gp, plus the cost of the spell casting (spell level x whatever x caster level), right? If that is what you're saying,t hen what I am saying is that while 5,000 gp is not a lot, diamonds worth 5kgp or more are rare. Or they should be at least. They are fairly hard to get randomly anyway. I just can't see a temple having a whole stash of them for the people who need TR.
While I still think you should probably start different campaigns, with consistent DMing, someone else's idea of stripping things down to the three core books sounds like a pretty good alternative.

 

[drowdude]

I agree with none of this except...

5) Haste don't stacks with other haste effects like Battletide (can have max +1 partial action)
6) Time stop effect doesn't stack with other haste effects you get just 1d4+1 rounds

Since both of those are true anyways...

What do you think?

I think that I would absolutely *HATE* playing in your campaign.... but hey, to each his own

 

[The Kender]

(rant)
Okay, here's what you do.

Say "All the gods have decided that you are way too powerful. They kill you all" Pick up every dice you own and roll them. Now add the totals up. It does that much damage per deity attacking. You've gotta roll this for each PC.

Now, you start a new game with the PHB, the DMG, and the MM where there is just one DM. You make sure and follow the rules as they are meant to be played, and use logic. First of all, the DMG is not a catalog/shopping list. You aren't going to buy a Holy Sword at Ye Old Walmart. The PC's get what YOU give them, and multiclass how YOU let them. Most of the things you posted are rules anyway.

And, before I finish, "YOU CAN'T HAVE A 13TH LEVEL SPELL AT 16TH LEVEL!!!!!!!" And if they had a scroll, remeber, the people who made that scroll are still out there.
(end rant)

 

[dcollins]

We started to get problems closing to 16th level.
PCs had AC about 70
DC saves were geting close to 40
Finding few days to create Items like:
Belt use activated with heal once a day is actually very eazy.
Everyone was walking with permanent Polimorph other into Stone Giant with persistant displacement.

Let me make a few short comments about this:

(1) I've never seen anyone who claimed AC's in their game of 40+ who turned out to be correctly following the stacking rules (when they tried to outline how ACs got so high). See DMG p. 177.

(2) Having trouble with "belts of heal" is due to not following the rule that every non-core item has to be approved by the DM. The easiest fix is for the DM to, by default, only only core rule magic items. See DMG p. 178 and 95.

(3) Those permanent spells will go away immediately with a single successful dispel magic. See PH p. 234 and so forth.

If you are playing same way with rotative DM, i would like your comments if you did something similar ... what rules did you make to prevent abuses.

This is exactly what my playgroup has done for ~2 years and it's worked very well. Some of the rules were:

* Core Rules only by default. Any rules change is only allowed by majority vote of all players (not just that week's DM). This would of course include "new magic items" as well.

* The preceding need for a majority vote is true for any new expansion book, as well. To date we only allow the Core Rules and the official WOTC class books.

* No DM can ever introduce a magic item specifically intended for their PC.

 

[Al]

Sure PC is allowed to store 50000gp in gems and gold in let's say temple of Pelor but it is not save.
1 Becouse Dangeon Delver from Song and Silence can 'sense' treasures of 10000gp or 1000gp+.
2 Becouse suddently there might happen some war or clerics were obligated to prepare to war and might happen to use all the gold they could get to help/protect the innocent. If PC stored gold in temple then he is a member of this temple and then he must agree/allow his treasure to be used as temple decides.
(PC: I gave you ring with three wishes ! Two are missing... Priest: But we had plagues of rats sir, otherwise our worshipers would starve to death)
3. Why would temple risk to be attacked by PC's enemies.
4. If some mage/thief with scrolls arrives with teleport then casts mordenkajnen's disjunction to remove any magical protections and casts mass teleport on treasure there is no refunds to PC
5. Treasure needs place, protections, guards it all costs why would any temple do it for free. I don't believe in Santa Clause
6. PC should buy house/keep/castle and mind his own bussiness rather then beg ppl to guard his gold, there are more important stuff for NPCs.
7. No such place as safe place exists.
8. Sure you can dig your gold somewhere ... worse if you was observed by scrying or someone is passing by with locate object cast on gold piece
9. Let's say hmm Middle ages. Would you believe that rich ppl that managed to earn a lot of cash on wars, killing others would every take their treasure and store it in Christian church for safe keeping? Buy buy gold. In middle ages all 'stored' jawelery would be considered donated

About Leadership i think it is great feat nice field for roleplay. Remember if you allow 1 pc to get it and you allow him to get his cohort with you other might want to get it as well. If you have 6 PC each with cohort you get 12 characters combats takes 3-4h each.
You can use your cohort and NPC for stuff like geather information, helping to build keep, persuading someone to do something,protecting your treasure, use scry on you to watch you and teleport in rare exceptions to help you.
Even i would allow scribing scrolls, making potions,analyze deomer, planar binding etc. and sharing spells from spellbook.
But big NO for traveling all the time with PC and helping him in every combat, if sometimes for some extremaly rare reason cohort/npcs is in combat they get full share of exp.

About travel: plane shift, mass teleport,or chained reach teleport (8th level cast by incanatrix), gate, windwalk is still on and very usefull.

About gate spell it is extremaly abusive to plane shift and gate in elminster, order him to sleep for 1r/level meanwhile you kill/rob him, no save no SR.
About GhostForm. You can cast wall of force at anyone if he can't teleport you can enter wall of force (half sphere) through ground 5' cast 2 spells and move back. Sure enemy can ready an attack but you can arrive with mirror images and half concealment from ghost form.
Persistant fiend form gives you ability to teleport w/o error at will for 24h. In haste you can teleport in cast 2 spells and teleport out.

About 13th level spell. There is no limitation about 9th level spells there is no limitation in buying any item according to core rules book. Sure you can limit it since you are DM but if you do you are house ruling, not playing exactly by book.

I never heard about ppl happy playing exactly by book without changing anything. We tried hard for about 18 months then gave up.
I em wondering if anyone made some similar set of rules not to rule 0 every time something odd happens.

I heard that Grayhavk licenced rules or osmething you can get paying 20$ to WothC don't allow magical items creation as well.

Btw 1 year ago before ELH appeard you could eazily create +50 bluff ring for 12500gp + some exp. And your meanie PC yeals: It is according to DMG RULES ! and we play BY BOOK.
Sometimes you just want to go home and get another beer.

Re: Storing Gold.

1. Of course it can get stolen. I never said it couldn't. Would it not be more interesting to have the PCs stash their hard-earnedc cash, it get stolen and the PCs have to retrieve it? Rather than simply blanketly saying 'no, you can't stash.'
2. Nice idea. Again, do that, rather than banning stashing.
3-9. etc. And why not introduce these rules/complications, rather than banning the stash. Indeed, these ideas here are very good: by allowing stashing you can probably make things more interesting.

Re: Gating Elminster.

Looking closely at Gate, you can't get unique beings (whether Big E is 'unique' is up to you). And yes, whilst you can get Elminster and play this tricks, why can't he then do it to YOU? If the PCs use cheap tricks, use them back on them. Except perhaps Elminster wants to teach the PCs a lesson, and not just nick their cash...

Re: Ghostform.

They played the same trick. But, firstly, why not do it back to them, and secondly, why not spoil their little parade. Disintegrate or Passwall can bypass the Wall of Force; or just ready actions. An Antimagic Shell usually does the trick...especially if a nearby colleague readies a grapple.

Re: 13th level spell.

Well, in theory you could scribe them, with one problems. No non-epic character can cast 13th level spells, and since you need to be able to cast the spell in order to scribe the scroll, no non-epic 13th level spell scrolls.

Re: Making Items.

Granted, but remember why the item creation rules are in the DMG, not PHB. They are the domain of the DM, and he should rule as such. If the PCs really insist on crafting uber-items, talk to them calmly and tell them they're breaking the game. If they persist, have your own NPCs make their own items...

Remember, as DM you have far more resources than even the most powerful PCs have hope to have. If the PCs insist on screwing with you, you can trump them. So they have an obscenely powerful item: why doesn't an evil deity simply requisition it. The game depends on the PCs respecting the DM- if that's not happening, then there is a serious problem with your group, and this needs to be addressed.