D&D 5E (2014) How To Make High Level 5E Work.For You +

[nevin]

Custom monsters would be my suggestion.

Sonething like 4E elites. 15 to all saves, +2 AC boisterous to hp. Legendary resistance doubled.

Bosses get +10 ir outright immunity.

5.0 monsters are weasauce. The new exclusive ones to 5 5 are better. Greater magic resistance on the rakshasa? Put that on more monsters.

I'm a big fan of lair actions, mythic actions and other just DM needs help with the high level abilities pc's have actions to balance out the fights and give every pc an actual challenge and cool necessary part of the big fights. Unfortunately that does lengthen planning timel

 

[TheSword]

This goes right back to the question of demographics you were responding to. What if the PCs and a few NPCs and powerful entitites are the only high level things in the world? What if the best wizards in the setting top off at 5th level and the PCs are 20th level?

Settings designed around ubiquitous, powerful magic are often interesting, but it is not the only way to do it. Where the high level PCs fit into the world is very important to consider -- preferably early on, before the PCs become the pinnacle of power.

Some good ideas I think to address the imbalance between plausible demographics and sufficient high level threats would be things like…

• Full scale Githzerai invasion from the astral planes (there was a dragon magazine that discussed this)
• Discovery of hellstone/wyrdstone that has a strange impacts on both magic and creatures
• A time of troubles - avatars walk the earth - with the gods presence creating all sorts of weird anomalies and threats.

 

[TheSword]

The single biggest piece of advice about running a high level campaign though is to pick your players wisely.

If they are the sorts to be using circle magic to extend the range of Animal Shapes to 5,000 feet radius and arguing with you at the table then the number of moving parts and toys that a High Level campaign gives them will be a killer. Same for the guy who dips four different classes to get some wacky combo.

For players that lean into themes, put in the time to learn their characters and invest in the world it can be amazing.

 

[Reynard]

Some good ideas I think to address the imbalance between plausible demographics and sufficient high level threats would be things like…

• Full scale Githzerai invasion from the astral planes (there was a dragon magazine that discussed this)
• Discovery of hellstone/wyrdstone that has a strange impacts on both magic and creatures
• A time of troubles - avatars walk the earth - with the gods presence creating all sorts of weird anomalies and threats.

Those are all good.

Also just the idea that PCs of that power level, the first in an age, perhaps, attract the attention of long slumbering wyrms, fae princes just on the other side of the veil, or the gods themselves. Just because those powers aren't ever present in this more "grounded" world doesn't mean they don't exist. Myths come from somewhere.

 

[jayoungr]

Character Death. The Big One as always. Character death is amazing at making high level play and the game work.

Can you expand on this? One comment I hear frequently is that it's too hard to kill high-level PCs, so how do you get character death to work for you in that case?

(Me personally, I almost had a TPK at level 17 in one memorable game. But that was largely due to player miscalculation.)

 

[OB1]

I've run 3 campaigns in 5e that have gone above level 12, two of which made it to 20. I LOVE high level play in 5e. Here are my biggest tips, starting with a paradox.

• There are no rules for how to best approach high level 5e play. The DM will have to customize the experience for their particular table. No two high level sets of players or even PCs, will be the same. It takes a combination of system mastery and storytelling mastery to do high level play well.
• Players dictate story in high level play. Before tier IV, the players react to the world the DM presents. Once in Tier IV, the world reacts to the PCs.
• You can't throw too much at a Tier IV party. If it's truely a fight they can't win, they will be able to escape and regroup.
• Make consequences epic and make PCs pick their priorities. Superman can only be in one place at a time, and the same is true for the PCs and what they do pick should mean something big happening due to what they didn't do.

 

[Reynard]

• Players dictate story in high level play. Before tier IV, the players react to the world the DM presents. Once in Tier IV, the world reacts to the PCs

While I agree with most of your points, I am not sure this one is axiomatic. It can be true, of course, but it can also be true that players dictate story in earlier tiers, as well as that story in tier 4 is still driven by the GM.

 

[Distracted DM]

OK, I am to busy to give a long detailed response, but will chime in as time allows with individual thoughts and experiences.

Suggestion #1: Have an AD&D mindset (a).
What I mean by this is AD&D made epic encounters work by "nerfing" casters. High level monsters had magic resistance* that could complete shut down direct magical effects. This forced casters to work more strategically. They could still be effective, but rarely, IME, complete change the encounter themselves. Additionally, encounters often had effects the nullified or reduced the effectiveness of magic. You can do this in 5e too.

I realize this might not be a popular option, but I have seen it work in both AD&D and 5e. Though I don't think this should be an every encounter solution, but a sometimes solution.

*In AD&D magic resistance was more akin to 5e's magic immunity. Spells would simply fail to have any effect on the monster.

Can you elaborate on "forced casters to work more strategically?" A couple examples maybe? I'm also wondering how to get players to think that way, it definitely seems like a learned behavior... I've had some that would just repeatedly throw their hands up when the same tactic wouldn't work, rather than trying to find some alternative.

 

[dave2008]

Can you elaborate on "forced casters to work more strategically?" A couple examples maybe? I'm also wondering how to get players to think that way, it definitely seems like a learned behavior... I've had some that would just repeatedly throw their hands up when the same tactic wouldn't work, rather than trying to find some alternative.

Now that you asked I am realizing that everyone I play with either learned the game with my back in 1e or learned from me during 4e and 5e (and I treated those games pretty much the same as 1e). So that problem solving mindset was built into our RPG playing DNA. So I don't know how to make players thing that way.

Here is an example of what I am talking about though:
We had a group of 5 lvl 20 PCs go up against Tiamat. They had previously learned that she was impervious to all but the most powerful of spells (aka "Limited Spell Immunity" - unaffected by spells of 6th level or lower and dis/advantage on all others). Therefore they focused on defensive and buff magic. The wizard also used a lightning bolt to knock off a stalagmite above Tiamat to inflict damage. They didn't try to cast magic directly at her so much. They did try some illusion magic too, but didn't realize that she has truesight

 

[Mort]

I brought that up.
You can also do stuff like magic missile or summons.

5E has the ingredients just scattered. Anyone own Descent into Avernus?

Sorry, should have linked your name to it.

I have descent into Avernus. Haven't run it though, might now that group finished the Planescape adventure. First part looks REALLY linear and then it seems to open up.

I might just take the end bits and adapt to my, now 18th level, group.