How to pump saves at high levels?

[Question]

It still only has a poor will save though.

 

[Caliban]

It still only has a poor will save though.

You can't have everything.

 

[KarinsDad]

Even at level 20 the best will save for a gish type build i can make is about +15.....that seems fairly low to me.

My Fighter 1 / Egoist 5 / Anarchic Initiate 3 / Slayer 10 / Egoist 1 build has Fort 13 Reflex 12 Will 15 without a single power up or psionic / magical item.

By level 20, he will almost definitely have a +5 Cloak and some stat boost items. Assuming the stat boost items are maxed at +6 and he can get Defensive Precognition (Insight Bonus) fired off early in the big fights (via Temporal Acceleration), that should put him in the ballpark of Fort 28 Reflex 27 Will 30. Course, he'll also have Cerebral Immunity at level 18, so it will be fairly difficult to affect him with many Will Save spells/powers anyway.


For an arcane type gish, you'll need Mind Blank up 24/7. That will cover a significant percentage of Will save spells. I also highly recommend Insightful Reflexes for those pesky Reflex saves.


And, it also depends on your DM. Caliban's Dwarf (at one time) had a single level in Pious Templar which gave him the Mettle ability. It also gave him +2 Fort and +2 Will. My DM would not allow a PC to only take one level in a Prestige Class. He has a minimum of 3 PrC levels campaign rule since he feels that the concept of taking a PrC means that the PC is dedicated to the ideas of that PrC, it is not just a matter of picking and choosing what you want for the PC.

But, if your DM does allow your PC to pretty much pick and choose, it is easy to get your Will Save up pretty nicely if you only take one or a few levels in multiple arcane PrCs. The tough part there is qualifying for multiple PrCs.

 

[Patlin]

Wheres that?

Here.

 

[Question]

The tough part is finding PRCs that offer good will saves, spellcasting progressions and full BAB.

In focusing on BAB and spellcasting progression i inevitably lost out on will saves.

 

[Nonlethal Force]

As a fighter mage, I'd assume your CON is better than your WIS? If you take endurance, you can take Steadfast Determination. It lets you use CON instead of WIS. Plus, you don't fail on a nat 1 if your roll still allows you to make the save. Not that I expect this will be the case.

But seriously, if your CON is as much as +4 or +5 higher than your WIS - which at a high enough level to be full EK it may be ... taking this set of feats might actually put you better of than trying to cheese yur way to a higher WILL save by PrCs.

 

[Nonlethal Force]

Additionally, CArc has Mage Slayer. +1 bonus to WILL, arcane casters you threaten cannot cast defensively.

CAdv has Force of Personality, use CHA instead of WIS. But unless you are a sorcerer EK, I doubt your CHA is worth this effort.

 

[Question]

As a fighter mage, I'd assume your CON is better than your WIS? If you take endurance, you can take Steadfast Determination. It lets you use CON instead of WIS. Plus, you don't fail on a nat 1 if your roll still allows you to make the save. Not that I expect this will be the case.

But seriously, if your CON is as much as +4 or +5 higher than your WIS - which at a high enough level to be full EK it may be ... taking this set of feats might actually put you better of than trying to cheese yur way to a higher WILL save by PrCs.

True, but a EK is farily short on feats anyway. Is it really worth one sub-optimal feat?

 

[kerbarian]

See title. At high levels +5 from a vest of resistance combined with base saves and ability mods just arent enough.......

The headband of conscious effort from CAd lets you use a concentration check in place of a fortitude save once/day. It's good if your caster class is sorcerer, but if your caster class is wizard, then you'd need the slot for a headband of intellect.

 

[Nonlethal Force]

True, but a EK is farily short on feats anyway. Is it really worth one sub-optimal feat?

Well, the thing is that you can't complain about having an EK with low WILL saves if you aren't willing to do something about it. You've already put up as much as you can in equipment. If you want to go beyond that then you are going to have to sacrifice. Endurance isn't a bad feat to have, and as I said if your CON is +$ or +% above your WIS then a single feat essentially turns the entire class into a 2-good save class.

So the question I have to ask: Is a single feat really that big of a cost to effectively turn a 1 good save class into a 2-good save class?

Would you take a feat called:

Improved WILL Save:
For the purposes of this feat, treat any 10 level PrC as having a good WILL 
save as opposed to a bad WILL save.

Because a +4 mod difference between CON and WIS is exactly what this feat does. Anything above a +4 difference and Steadfast Determination is efectively better in most situations. [Barring a reduction in CON. But if you take that into account, you also have to realize that opponents who target your WIS thinking that it'll reduce your WILL save will be sorely dissappointed.]