How to resolve multiple "at the start of your turn" effects and miss damage

[MrMyth]

Sounds like it's time for you to move on, then.

DracoSuave is spot on. RPGs have a GM for a reason. No amount of rules will ever be able to replace a GM so it's not a reasonable goal to have a rule for everything.

Sure, but I don't think it is particularly helpful, in a rules thread, to say, "The rules don't matter - let the DM decide." Even when I agree with that sentiment, I don't find it particularly appropriate here.

Especially since the rules do, in fact, address this. PHB pg 268 lists the following order:
-Ongoing damage occurs.
-Regeneration occurs.
-Any other 'start of turn effects' occur.
-Any effects that 'end at start of turn' occur.

My group has tended to play that the acting player gets to choose the order when things might process at the same time. (Say, if you start in the aura of two swarms, one of whom has an attack that would push you out of the others aura.) But those are pretty rare cases.

And, of course, it should go without saying that a DM is perfectly free to change this or rule otherwise, as best fits their game... but for those looking for some guidance in the rules, the above seems to be what is available.

 

[keterys]

Especially since the rules do, in fact, address this. PHB pg 268 lists the following order:
-Ongoing damage occurs.
-Regeneration occurs.
-Any other 'start of turn effects' occur.
-Any effects that 'end at start of turn' occur.

Even if you assume that's an ordered list (which is not stated), what happens in the following situation:

Character 1 hp above bloodied starts in an aura that deals 5 damage and has an ability that, at the start of their turn, deals 5 damage to all nearby enemies, as long as they're not bloodied.

They're both definitely an "Any other start of turn effects", or 3rd on the list.

Using that order does make ongoing damage stronger, though, by preventing regeneration or start of turn saves from triggering against it.

Along those lines - how many people allow a Dreadnought's AP Resist All (until the start of your next turn) apply to ongoing damage and aura/zone damage that happens at the start of a turn? That 'ends at start of turn' bit being at the end of the list also really makes me think even more that it's not an ordered list.

 

[firesnakearies]

Yeah, I don't find any compelling reason to believe that it must be an ordered list. I'd be inclined to read it as simply a list, with no specific directive that it must be followed in the order that it is presented.

 

[Mengu]

Along those lines - how many people allow a Dreadnought's AP Resist All (until the start of your next turn) apply to ongoing damage and aura/zone damage that happens at the start of a turn? That 'ends at start of turn' bit being at the end of the list also really makes me think even more that it's not an ordered list.

Never even thought about this one, but I interpret:

Until start of next turn < start of next turn.
Until end of next turn <= end of next turn.

Not sure why I use the double standard on interpreting "until" but that's the way we've played it so far.

 

[the Jester]

I don't have my PH with me, but I am positive that it states that the player can choose what order to resolve actions at the start/end of his turn.

I thought so too but cannot find a reference to it anywhere.

I'm wondering if it might be hidden in the description of the warden or maybe a sidebar in PH2 or something.

 

[DracoSuave]

Sure, but I don't think it is particularly helpful, in a rules thread, to say, "The rules don't matter - let the DM decide." Even when I agree with that sentiment, I don't find it particularly appropriate here.

Yeah, but in this particular case, that IS the 'official rule'. Everything else is just a ruling made by a DM. Helpful? Depends on your refereeing philosophy or the situation.

And personally, I let the person whose turn it is decide. It's just more friendly and empowering that way, and rarely makes a real difference.

 

[firesnakearies]

And personally, I let the person whose turn it is decide. It's just more friendly and empowering that way, and rarely makes a real difference.

Yep. This is how I feel, too.

 

[CovertOps]

This is how we've always played it. The only source I can find is something a former member of the design team said.

I want to second this. I'm sure I've read this someplace else other than the above link that whoever's turn it is gets to decide the order of things. I know there was a debate here about the start of turn/end of turn lists being ordered lists or just a list. They are NOT numbered, just bulleted which tells me it is an unordered list (ie do them in whatever order you want).

 

[Xeterog]

I thought so too but cannot find a reference to it anywhere.

I'm wondering if it might be hidden in the description of the warden or maybe a sidebar in PH2 or something.

Maybe it was a clarification or a FAQ or something, as I'm sure it was an 'official' source that I used to determine that start of turn events happen in the order the PC/NPC wants them to happen.

 

[Jhaelen]

Sure, but I don't think it is particularly helpful, in a rules thread, to say, "The rules don't matter - let the DM decide." Even when I agree with that sentiment, I don't find it particularly appropriate here.

Well, I've had this discussion before - even with the admins in the meta forum. I believe a rules forum's main purpose is to provide a place to ask for advice on rules questions. In simple cases you can just point to the rule and that's it. But in more complex cases it always comes down to a matter of interpretation.

I've never said 'the rules don't matter'. I've said, there cannot be a rule for everything. And if there is no rule for something, a DM will have to make a judgement call. Therefore a rules forum is a good place to ask other DM's how they'd rule it.

It's _not_ the place to appeal for an official rules amendment.