D&D 5E How to Stock and Key a Dungeon Traditionally(and tips on Dungeon Design)

[Charlaquin]

Yes, becoming less common in, say, 1992.

Yeah, true. And started becoming more common again with the OSR, though I don’t think it will ever again be the main way of playing.

It actually kinda funny we are talking about dungeon design at all. At some point, it was received wisdom that the only real dungeons being run were modules (as they were called). A DM might come up with 5 room locations, but in their scene to scene games big dungeons were an ancient relic.

Yeah, there are folks who make their own “real” dungeons again now.

 

[the Jester]

Yes, becoming less common in, say, 1992.

It actually kinda funny we are talking about dungeon design at all. At some point, it was received wisdom that the only real dungeons being run were modules (as they were called). A DM might come up with 5 room locations, but in their scene to scene games big dungeons were an ancient relic.

I don't know... I have never run or played in a campaign that didn't feature multiple big ass dungeons. At least that I can recall. I'm currently playing in four campaigns, and we're in a big dungeon in three of them.

In the mid-90s, the biggun in my campaign was the Hill of Skulls. Later it was all about Bile Mountain, including multiple revisits with different groups of pcs. In 5e, it has been Marble Hall.

So while they did drop out of fashion for a while, I don't think big dungeons ever really went away in play.

 

[LordEntrails]

I do tend to think ‘designing‘ empty rooms is pointless since they can just be handwaved in dialogue “you pass through the first few room and find nothing of interest…”. Of course some otherwise empty rooms may contain clues - but in that case theyre not actually empty

IMO not if you are actually mapping the whole thing, in the right situations. In some cases it would like be making a detailed map of the underdark and arguing every cave, opening or passage has to have "something" in it.

But, the biggest take away to me is "it depends".

I mean… One of the things that we’ve learned since then is that they actually did know what they were doing, and had good reasons behind a lot of their design decisions. Sure, adhering slavishly to this guideline is limiting, but it is good general advice for the kinds of games they were running.

I think that is over generous. I have learned that sometimes they knew what they were doing and made design decisions I agree with. But do agree that there is value in taking their advice into consideration.

In part, my reluctance is that when I see people harken back to the games originators, it often appears to me that are trying to support their position by name dropping. Not supporting their position with evidence or logic.

 

[Charlaquin]

I think that is over generous. I have learned that sometimes they knew what they were doing and made design decisions I agree with. But do agree that there is value in taking their advice into consideration.

Sure. My point was more that there are a lot of design choices in the early editions that, at a read, people thought sounded crazy and wrote off. But, it often turns out that there was a good reason for these things.

In part, my reluctance is that when I see people harken back to the games originators, it often appears to me that are trying to support their position by name dropping. Not supporting their position with evidence or logic.

People do sometimes do that, but I don’t think it’s being done here. @FallenRX explains the logic behind it - specifically that classic dungeon delving is a sort of push-your-luck game of risk and reward. Empty rooms are an important part of that risk/reward balance because they drain resources but don’t present an immediate danger. They contribute to the difficulty of the dungeon in a softer way than an encounter or hazard.

 

[Lanefan]

What purpose do empty rooms serve?

1) Realism? It doesn't make sense for the [insert dungeon justification here] to be jammed full of monsters?

1a) Realism - the room once had a purpose but that purpose is no longer valid, thus the room has been abandoned.

2) Spacers? If it wasn't for the empty rooms the monsters in room 7 would kill the monsters in room 14?

Which comes right back to realism.

3) Safe rest zones?

4) To lull the players into a false sense of security, so they might actually be surprised when the perfectly ordinary chest turns out to be a mimic?

5) Because I drew lots of rooms on my graph paper and can't think of enough stuff to fill all of them?

6) Something else I haven't thought of?

Other than maybe #6 these are all meta-considerations. If I'm designing a constructed (as opposed to natural-cavern) dungeon, one of my key considerations is to ask myself "Why was this room built in the first place and what was its purpose then?", regardless of what it might be used for now.

 

[aco175]

I like to have some cluster areas with rooms. Some may be empty or act as a bedrooms, but the monsters may be gathered in another area eating or in a ritual. At night, the monsters may be in the other rooms, but fighting will draw all of that cluster to fight. Each cluster is also far enough from other area that fighting in one area may not draw attention from the other areas.
This last part is a little gamey, since noise in caves and such would travel more than the space I tend to make. Things like underground rivers and chanting may excuse some, but some other parts may just be overlooked.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Other than maybe #6 these are all meta-considerations. If I'm designing a constructed (as opposed to natural-cavern) dungeon, one of my key considerations is to ask myself "Why was this room built in the first place and what was its purpose then?", regardless of what it might be used for now.

So, do meta considerations matter? Gygax was making meta considerations when he wrote that advice. You can tell from the monsters he invented and his published modules that 4) was a big thing for him, and 5) was something that happened on a regular basis.

1a) Realism - the room once had a purpose but that purpose is no longer valid, thus the room has been abandoned.

Does realism always matter? If you look at a classic adventure like The Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan (not written by Gygax) you can see that realism wasn't a consideration when populating that dungeon.

Hidden Shrine has no empty rooms.

 

[Charlaquin]

What purpose do empty rooms serve?

1) Realism? It doesn't make sense for the [insert dungeon justification here] to be jammed full of monsters?

2) Spacers? If it wasn't for the empty rooms the monsters in room 7 would kill the monsters in room 14?

3) Safe rest zones?

4) To lull the players into a false sense of security, so they might actually be surprised when the perfectly ordinary chest turns out to be a mimic?

5) Because I drew lots of rooms on my graph paper and can't think of enough stuff to fill all of them?

6) Something else I haven't thought of?

I missed this before, but the primary purpose they serve is to chew through resources, without posing an immediate threat. In that sense, you can think of them a bit like the lowest-difficulty type of encounter. They also serve as a pacing tool. They give the players breathing room between actual encounters.

 

[Mannahnin]

We had a thread recently in the Older Editions forum talking about the original dungeon design/random stocking guidelines, which might be useful reading/additional context.

OSR - The Basic/Expert Dungeon

I've been very curious for a while about how a campaign would actually play if you follow the advice in the Basic and Expert rules just as they are written. It won't reveal how people actually commonly played the game back in 1982, but the longer I keep studying the original rules and try to...

www.enworld.org

 

[Lanefan]

So, do meta considerations matter? Gygax was making meta considerations when he wrote that advice. You can tell from the monsters he invented and his published modules that 4) was a big thing for him, and 5) was something that happened on a regular basis.

Yes, some of his monsters were purely meta-inventions. Doesn't make them perfect, or something I'd use often if ever. (exception: Rust Monsters!)

Does realism always matter? If you look at a classic adventure like The Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan (not written by Gygax) you can see that realism wasn't a consideration when populating that dungeon.

I've never run or played HSoT though with luck I one day will. That said, there's certainly space for funhouse dungeons with some vague underlying rationale that causes all kinds of incompatible creatures to live cheek by jowl - Gygax's Dungeonland and Beyond the Magic Mirror are two such.

But unless the specific intent is that a dungeon be a funhouse type of place, then yes: realism always matters.