How to stop a Warden?

[Wednesday Boy]

Maybe you could illustrate this point by TALKING TO THE PLAYER.

Very true. I focused on the first part of your comment but overlooked reiterating that mature conversation is the best way to go.

 

[Nullzone]

I guess we're at two divergent problems here; is it that the player is being disruptive with his actions or is the OP just concerned about providing him an adequate challenge?

I mean, if the other players don't actually have a problem with his playstyle or character's dichotomous personality, then I wouldn't even address the "Should he actually play a Warden/defender" issue. If the table is working together, even if the Warden doesn't actively show it, then the rest shouldn't matter.


If it's a mechanical issue with challenging the player of the Warden, then it's going to be an uphill battle, because they're pretty hard to kill no matter what you do; you may be able to hit them, but a lot of their powers are designed to soak away a good portion of the damage you'd otherwise be dealing.

Stunning is a cheap way to deny them, but it's not fun for the player. Use it very sparingly, and expect the monster(s) that stun to get taken out quickly thereafter. Dazing can be a little better as it doesn't completely disable the player and leave them turnless; instead it forces them to think about what they want to do with their limited action count. Still, be careful. Locking someone in a dazed effect is a bummer because it can make them feel neutered for the fight. If Superior Will or other sources of saving throws are a concern, then put extra riders on the effects; failed save or aftereffect lines that tack on some slowed or other limiting factor can help keep the Warden guessing.

Another thing you can do is simply get monsters that prevent the Warden's extra effects from taking hold and denying the monsters access to the rest of the party. A brute who can (on a recharge) shift twice his speed, enter enemy squares, and make an attack on every creature he makes contact with as part of the move is excellent, because you can obey the Warden's mark this way and still get some damage out on the rest of the party, which will usually make everyone sit up and go "oh, that guy is going to be trouble". Or make up some skirmishers who don't provoke OA for moving away from the target of an attack/can move away as a secondary effect on a hit.

Alternately, get secondary effects running that cause vulnerabilities to crop up and expose the chinks in the PCs defense. One monster applies vulnerable psychic, another causes ongoing psychic; put them together and you can get some pretty solid damage going out every round even if you can't get to the Warden himself.

 

[eriktheguy]

I guess we're at two divergent problems here; is it that the player is being disruptive with his actions or is the OP just concerned about providing him an adequate challenge?

This is true. So far I like the idea of making the warden feel powerful by tossing out damage and conditions he can ignore with his large HP pool and font of life class feature.

 

[Mengu]

I had to go reread the original post to remember the broad view. I don't think it's a single function of the warden. If the party isn't sufficiently challenged, then the warden won't be challenged either.

I would like an encounter that will at least make the players sweat.

Then make it so. To make encounters harder, you can increase damage, use monsters with greater synergy, add more minions, add more monsters, add more terrain features, whatever it takes. The harder the encounter is for everyone, the harder it will be for the warden.

 

[eriktheguy]

Another point I want to make is that the DM and PC interpretation of a challenge can be different. What you think is a cakewalk for the PCs they might find difficult. If they are using surges, encounter powers and daily powers, maybe they aren't finding it easy. I've noticed this with my groups sometimes in the past.

 

[sigfile]

It's not the warden's job to gaurd the group just because his class has the defender role. If he wants to play an unkillable, low damage striker, that's his perogative.

Agreed, to a point. A party is a team, and a team usually does its best work when everyone works together. When one team member decides to pull a TO, the team suffers.

The unkillable warden wanna-be striker is a great example of this. If he's not playing defender (and no one else is, either), he could find himself the only person in the group with any healing surges left by the end of encounter #2. Sure, he gets his licks in, but enemies are probably focusing on most anybody except him. Tactical play is great, but part of tactical play is knowing how to get the most out of your resources. Healing surges are resources, and earthstrength wardens have them in spades.

 

[Thatwackyned]

You want to really mess with the Warden's tactics, but not kill him? Send in minions that explode on death.

They are in a Castle, goblins are attacking/defending it. Goblin minions are strapped with exploding runes +12 vs Ref, that deal 2d6+5 damage when killed, burst 2.

The Warden can only mark burst one, so he will be getting close.

or

Use dogs (or anything dog like). give them a bit attack +12 vs ref, 1d6+3 damage, for every dog after the first that succeeds on a bite attack add a rend attack 2d6+5.

Watch him shake in his booties then.

 

[eriktheguy]

Agreed, to a point. A party is a team, and a team usually does its best work when everyone works together. When one team member decides to pull a TO, the team suffers.

The unkillable warden wanna-be striker is a great example of this. If he's not playing defender (and no one else is, either), he could find himself the only person in the group with any healing surges left by the end of encounter #2. Sure, he gets his licks in, but enemies are probably focusing on most anybody except him. Tactical play is great, but part of tactical play is knowing how to get the most out of your resources. Healing surges are resources, and earthstrength wardens have them in spades.

This is true. That's why the second half of my post points out that if the party is suffering for lack of a proper defender, make sure they have one.

 

[Ryujin]

Agreed, to a point. A party is a team, and a team usually does its best work when everyone works together. When one team member decides to pull a TO, the team suffers.

The unkillable warden wanna-be striker is a great example of this. If he's not playing defender (and no one else is, either), he could find himself the only person in the group with any healing surges left by the end of encounter #2. Sure, he gets his licks in, but enemies are probably focusing on most anybody except him. Tactical play is great, but part of tactical play is knowing how to get the most out of your resources. Healing surges are resources, and earthstrength wardens have them in spades.

I tend to agree, and it would likely be trivial to mop up the rest of the party as they don't have an effective defender, but I truly hate rewarding someone for being a bad player by punishing everyone else.

 

[mneme]

They are in a Castle, goblins are attacking/defending it. Goblin minions are strapped with exploding runes +12 vs Ref, that deal 2d6+5 damage when killed, burst 2.
...
Use dogs (or anything dog like). give them a bit attack +12 vs ref, 1d6+3 damage, for every dog after the first that succeeds on a bite attack add a rend attack 2d6+5.

Sheesh. What is it with threads like this and people suggesting grudge monsters? Wake up; they're -never- a good idea!

Re threatening the warden--It sounds a lot like the player is playing his warden as a 3.5 fighter -- good at striking, hard to hurt; very mano a mano. Why not play into that--set up a situation where the party needs to get away from a set of foes (give them a foe that can't be permanently defeated, just delayed/temporarily disabled, for instance); probably with a secondary goal rather than fearing for their life. (say, the town of Bfwlgqrffn is suffering a sleeping sickness which can only be cured by the fnylawth flower. But the only field that produces the unpronouncable flower is guarded by a fierce beast. So to harvest the flowers and save the town, someone has to solo (or close to it) the beast while the rest of the party gathers flowers, then hold it back long enough for the rest of the party to get out of scent range. Give the thing some fairly standard high-damage at wills that hit AC, and a recharge power that hits Reflex to make him sweat, give it solo stats, and let him step on up to take the thing on long enough for the rest of the party to accomplish their goals.