How to stop Tumblers?

[DungeonMaester]

Off-topic: Dread Archon, not Dark Archon. Different game (Warhammer 40,000).

Salt and pepper.

That could work, but I think it would be needlessly complicated. Also, Tumble ranks already give you AC while you're fighting defensively.

Yeah.. A Massive +1. Whats that? Dodge? Why burn a feat? Also, if written properly it doesn't need to be overly complicated. Something simple like:

In a single combat, you can attempt to roll out of the way of any attack by making a tumble check higher then the opposing attack roll. You can only use this if you are not caught flat footed. You must declare you are using this when you are targeted for attack.

This will be useful for classes that don't use armor, but not overly powerful because of the limited use. Though, I think 4-6 times per combat is a bit much.

---Rusty

 

[Shadowknight]

What about caltrops? Not sure how you would handle them?
Would they make it impossible, or just increase the tumble dc?

Imagin the pin cushion you would have if someone tried it! ouch. lol

 

[FireLance]

What about caltrops? Not sure how you would handle them?
Would they make it impossible, or just increase the tumble dc?

The SRD has this to say about caltrops:

Each time a creature moves into an area covered by caltrops (or spends a round fighting while standing in such an area), it might step on one. The caltrops make an attack roll (base attack bonus +0) against the creature. For this attack, the creature’s shield, armor, and deflection bonuses do not count. If the creature is wearing shoes or other footwear, it gets a +2 armor bonus to AC. If the caltrops succeed on the attack, the creature has stepped on one. The caltrop deals 1 point of damage, and the creature’s speed is reduced by one-half because its foot is wounded. This movement penalty lasts for 24 hours, or until the creature is successfully treated with a DC 15 Heal check, or until it receives at least 1 point of magical curing. A charging or running creature must immediately stop if it steps on a caltrop. Any creature moving at half speed or slower can pick its way through a bed of caltrops with no trouble.

Hence, I would rule that a tumbling character either has to take a further speed reduction (20 ft. of movement to move 5 ft. when tumbling at half speed, or 10 ft. of movement to move 5 ft. when tumbling at full speed), or risk stepping on a caltrop.

 

[Lord Zardoz]

Getting away from the debate on how broken / not broken tumble is, here are my ideas for countering Tumbling.

1) Readied action to Grapple. Its pretty hard to tumble past someone when they tackle you and pin your bouncy arse to the ground. Even if the Grapper is a non monk humanoid, the other meat shields can go ahead and beat on the tumbler while your grappler holds him down. In most cases, those that would Tumble probably have crappy Str scores, so the Grapple check should be easy.

2) Caltrops. As someone pointed out, they stop movement cold if you don't try to move slowly. The reduced movement rate required to not get stuck on the Caltrops will probably leave the Tumbler in an inconvenient situation. They are already at half move for tumbling (unless they took an additional -10 penalty). At 1/4 movement, They may move 1.5 squares.

3) Nets. I am pretty sure that you cannot tumble when Entangled.

4) Readied Tanglefoot Bag. Will also entangle the Tumbler, and if your lucky, glue the bouncy bugger to the floor.

Anyway, I am sure you posted the thread because the Tumbling has presented a problem for you in your campaign. Personally, I only get annoyed by it when a player does something like create a Half Orc Barbarian with 20 Str and maxes Tumble, thereby creating a bouncy raging lunatic, which while combat effective, kind of ruins my sense of disbeleif.

That aside, I suspect that the reason this skill annoys you is because it is proving very effective against your favorite combat tactics / monsters. (In this context, I would say the tumbler is getting past the meat shields and making life difficult for your casters, or setting up easy flanking for later sneak attacks). You can always try a radical departure from your current strategies.

Try running an adventure in the ocean against Sahuagin (Hard to tumble under water), Use flying creatures (hard to flank a flying opponent), use Constructs (no casting to worry about, immune to sneak attacks), or an epic combat against lava elementals in the heart of an active volcano (who the hell wants to tumble through squares of magma).

Anyway, good luck with your gaming.

END COMMUNICATION

 

[phindar]

Actually, the thing I like about making Tumble an Opposed Check is that in some situations, it makes Tumbling easier. Its pretty rare for my group to continue our campaigns past 10th level, and the group has multiple GM's so its not a question of me or another guy trying to screw the players; the rules we run under this week are the rules we play under next week. So that's where I'm coming from, rules-wise.

Opposed Checks for Skills means that characters have a chance at low level to be successful, and that characters at higher levels don't automatically succeed. That works for my group, as we tend to focus on the mid-levels of play. And speaking as a player, I like skills you have to roll, because its more exciting. I don't find "can't fail/can't succeed" skills all that dramatic.

 

[Nail]

I don't find "can't fail/can't succeed" skills all that dramatic.

Searching for objects/traps must be a real downer for you then.

 

[DreadArchon]

Salt and pepper.

Yeah, but Dread Archons are cooler.

In a single combat, you can attempt to roll out of the way of any attack by making a tumble check higher then the opposing attack roll. You can only use this if you are not caught flat footed. You must declare you are using this when you are targeted for attack.

It's the actual use that makes it go too far. It would often not stop at a mere 4-6 times per turn. For example, in my last game, the Dwarf Rogue (with Tumble) got attacked by two Carcass Eaters from Libris Mortis. The combat took four rounds (the PC's kept missing), during which the Dwarf took 6 attacks per round. And this is a below-EL combat for a level 3 party, it can get worse fast at higher levels, especially considering that one can no longer just roll the attacks and hand out damage due to having to stop and wait for the PC.

I guess you could do it the Neverwinter Nights way and give permanent +1 Dodge AC for every 5 (10?) ranks in Tumble.

 

[phindar]

Searching for objects/traps must be a real downer for you then.

I never found them to be so. As long as you're not going radically above or below your CR rating on the traps, the DCs seem to be within the rollable range. (My last rogue had Search/Dis Dev of 25/22 at 13th level, so as long as the DC's were above 25-- not uncommon at those levels-- I had to roll.) Of course, I'm a big fan of extending the "1 Always Fails, 20 Always Succeeds" to Skill Checks, if only because I don't think anyone should ever have a 100% certainty of anything. (I also think having 1's Fail with a back up of Hero or Action points is preferable to having 1's Succeed.) But I'm a gambler, so that part of the game is fun for me.

 

[Nail]

I never found them to be so. As long as you're not going radically above or below your CR rating on the traps, the DCs seem to be within the rollable range.

Search: Take 20. No roll necessary. Either you fail, or you succeed.

 

[Seeten]

At that age, I loved the tables. I thought it was the coolest thing ever to have to look something up in the blue book....and know what page it was on.

When I was GMing Rolemaster, I had the majority of the tables in Arms Law memorized.

Thats a feat worth discussing.