How to unite people who want opposite things?

* Present modular alternatives as equally viable options. No option should be presented as either the only correct option or as the wrong option.

* Let the DM and players negotiate the game as equal partners. Some variations are a matter of design philosophy for players, while some deal primarily with the DM. Most of the time it's only an issue when the players and DM are of a different set of preferences than each other.
 

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So one of the stated goals of 5e is to unite all D&D players, to the point where people with different styles can play at the same table.

As I've expounded upon elsewhere, I don't think this is the correct reading of their stated goal--or rather, it is narrowly, technically correct but misleading as presented.

Can Joe and Jane with their separate styles play at the same table? Maybe. People have been playing with separate styles at the table since D&D started. It depends on the people, how their styles conflict, and a whole host of such things. Is the goal that any person with any style can play at any table with another style? Heck no. :D
 

For example, my read is that most of the people who are complaining about PCs and monsters being built on the same platform are really complaining about poorly written statblocks that are confusing and require references to other sources.

That is part of it, but the bigger issue is that customizing the monster is unnecessarily fiddly. Derived numbers are a pain. I did a lot of my 3E monsters in Word documents. When I copied a monster and scaled it or added a 3E template, I'd practically have to rewrite it. Then the effects of buffs on top of this in combat is even worse.

This takes times to grok. Plus, even if you aren't obsesive about it, and simply eyeball the numbers, you want to be in the ballpark of where it would have been had you done it the long way. Otherwise, you don't get the full benefit of the "challenge rating" or "encounter budget" systems. And bottom line, DMs builds a heck of a lot more custom monsters and encounters than players do characters.

So I don't think you get a compromise position with a 3E style that does mainly 3E stuff, only better.

I do think there is room for a sort of "compromise" that diverges from both 3E and 4E methods to cleanly emulate the the feel and results that are in the middle. The key to this is a careful selection of core abilities that are iconic for the creatures, but more expansive than what 4E did in this respect, and then supplemented by templates that carefully avoid derived values, and by monster "roles" that share some with player character "roles".

For example, take the simple goblin. You don't have one common ability to unify goblins. You pick two to four common abilities for the base goblin, and that's all he has. Let this set of abilities unite to really give the feel of goblins. Then you include some decent flavor and description text that fits those abilities. Goblins really stand out now when you read them, and they stand out in play consistent with that reading. So already we are sticking with a fairly simple stat block for the 4E crowd, but supplementing with more text and lore for the 3E guys.

Next, when you want to customize the goblins, you start pulling from those templates and roles. If you want a goblin shaman, you don't need a special set of abilities just for that. Instead, you go pull from the "controller or artillery" list and then when you really want him to stand out, add on direct from a shaman class. If he is also a werewolf or mad alchemist or any number of such things, grab a template. Now, the things that makes this goblin different from other goblins are things that you pulled from a semi-common pool. But his goblin abilities are still core to being a goblin. So the 4E crowd has a slightly more complex stat block (more abilities on average) but gets some enhanced flexibility in return, while the 3E crowd now gets some immersion hooks into those common abilities. (And you don't need to be perfect here for either side to be reasonably happy. You merely need to give them something to hang onto.)

And of course in the MM, you include a few examples of such things that people will want to use, fully fleshed out with the abilities repeated right there in the blocks. Same way with adventures. If you make your own and don't have software specifically for that, you'll have to cut and paste a bit in a word processing program, but that isn't really that big a chore once you get cranked up. Everytime you add a new type of goblin, your list gets more comprehensive. If a functional monster builder does this for you, so much the better--even if all you do is let it make a first pass and then copy it to your word processor.

In order for this to work, however, you have to really make abilities that don't depend on each or other parts of the listing with a lot of recalculation. That is a change for both 3E and 4E abilities. Take making a goblin "bruiser" for example. Let's say that is base goblin, but with some "brute" ability added. That brute ability doesn't need to have embedded numbers that have to be figured based on the goblin. Rather it needs to assume that the goblin is already using some core attack (as any monster would have) and the bruiser ability supplements this.

In 4E terms, you might have a rechargable or encounter ability that isn't used by itself, but supplements an at-will melee weapon attack. And do we really need to calculate to hit and damage for "brute smash" when all it does is "my club smash, +1d6+3 damage"? And if the ability does something totally different, like knock someone prone or daze them or whatever, then even better to not repeat the same damage. That way, when you tack it on a tougher goblin or a gnoll or a troll, it works exactly the same way, everytime.
 

So one of the stated goals of 5e is to unite all D&D players, to the point where people with different styles can play at the same table.

Well, note that "people with different styles can play at the same table" does not necessarily mean, "everyone gets *exactly and only* what they personally want at the table".

For example, floating in General at the moment is a thread about Vancian spellcasting. Some folks like it, others don't, that's not news. But, it was there noted that, given enough other incentives, many of those who don't like vancian magic will play 3e and earlier versions, which are mostly vancian.

So, one of the ways to get those disparate people at the table is to give them lots of what they do want, even if what they don't want is also present.

It is possible to have truly mutually exclusive desires, but perhaps they are not as common as we might think.

And, of course there's the point that the design goal, and what they actually manage, are not the same thing. Perfection is an unattainable goal, but reaching for it can get you something really, really good. So, perhaps in attempting to unite everyone, they'll manage to unite many.

I, as a consumer, am not going to make perfect the enemy of good.
 


ENWorld never fails. Thanks for the great responses all, I wish XP weren't turned off.

The idea of presenting both is a possibility. Do you think they'd use both approaches in Monster Manuals and published adventures, or lean towards one?

I think I find the idea of give and take a little more compelling. If you give me enough of what I want I'm happy to let a few other things slide. That's not the impression that I'm getting from WOTC's initial spin though.

Sorry if I'm sounding like a downer. I applaud lofty goals, but I'm also a pragmatist at heart. I'm really interested in seeing 5e develop, but a small part of me also worries that it won't live up to the hype.
 

That is part of it, but the bigger issue is that customizing the monster is unnecessarily fiddly. Derived numbers are a pain. I did a lot of my 3E monsters in Word documents. When I copied a monster and scaled it or added a 3E template, I'd practically have to rewrite it. Then the effects of buffs on top of this in combat is even worse.

This takes times to grok. Plus, even if you aren't obsesive about it, and simply eyeball the numbers, you want to be in the ballpark of where it would have been had you done it the long way.

All true.

So I don't think you get a compromise position with a 3E style that does mainly 3E stuff, only better.

I do think there is room for a sort of "compromise" that diverges from both 3E and 4E methods to cleanly emulate the the feel and results that are in the middle. The key to this is a careful selection of core abilities that are iconic for the creatures, but more expansive than what 4E did in this respect, and then supplemented by templates that carefully avoid derived values, and by monster "roles" that share some with player character "roles".

I do think there is a little more room for compromise though, mostly as described in this thread.

First, you can do something as you describe to make monster building faster and a more closely tied to the game universe. Frankly, having "classed" monsters select abilities from a common set of powers would go 60% of the way there, even if the rest of the stat block was derived through a simplified monster system. Having weapon-using monsters adopt the characteristics of the weapons they're using would be good for another 10% of the cognitive dissonance too.

The second part is just to allow the use of most PC rules for complex monsters. OCD GMs can use them all the time, but most of us will only do it for a nemesis (or ally) expected to have a large amount of screen time. The key here is figuring out how to adopt "elite" and "solo" concepts for PC-like enemies, and how to calculate a monster's level (for xp and encounter building purposes) for monsters with a much larger set of abilities.

Lastly, we need a wider variety of stat blocks formats. We probably need some crunchier monsters (something between a minion and a standard monster) for quick fights, and many of those creatures don't need a stat block as long as the 4e version. On the other hand, the 4e stat block is a cumbersome way to express complicated creatures. It takes several pages to print a PC's character sheet -- an abbreviated version for fleshed-out NPCs might be necessary. Maybe fleshed-out NPCs include the expected combat powers 4e stat-block style and a second list of "other powers" that are just listed (3e stat-block style), allowing a GM to look them up if they become relevant.

-KS
 


Considering how much people are up in arms about how 4e gave players too much power, the idea of negotiating with the DM what's in the game is going to seriously upset people
4E did? I thought player min/maxing, empowerment, and customization was 3E's thing.
 


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