How Visible To players Should The Rules Be?

[Lanefan]

Well, for some people and some games it can be both:

* They "see" (imagine) an Ogre. This is the clouds that Vincent Baker is referring to here.

* They "see" (actually interact with) a collection of numbers, keywords, currencies, resolution procedures, incentive structures, clocks/timers, inventory/loadout schemes, relationship values, and moves (or powers or knacks or whatever they're called in a given game) that collectively serve as the game layer language which represents said Ogre so that actual people in meat space can (a) correctly orient to said "clouds" (elements of the imagined space), (b) play the game in front of them which entails composing (if you're a GM) and managing (if you're a player) a compelling, game layer-related decision-space. This is the boxes that Vincent Baker is referring to here.

When I run Dogs in the Vineyard, I don't "see" dice pools and "raises" and "sees" (etc). I compose situations that provoke the judgement or mercy of young priests who are trying to manage the stewardship role of their faith and all the imaginings that entails. Same goes for Blades in the Dark or Torchbearer or Stonetop or The Between or D&D 4e or Mouse Guard or whatever. No one at the table is just "seeing" a collection of numbers or throws of dice or keywords or Resistance Rolls rather than Ogres, the faithful falling to Sin and Sorcery, corrupt Bluecoats shaking down a corner store, and the stink of soot, machine shavings, dense smoke, and showers of sparks in Coalridge, or x, y, z imaginings.

Indeed, though some (many?) people aren't very good at processing both the "clouds" and the "boxes" at the same time; to the point where processing one actively gets in the mind-space way of processing the other.

As a player, I'm like this. If I get immersed in the fiction I'll sometimes forget about the numbers, which means I end up failing to add bonuses, use abilities, etc. (this was often a problem for me when playing 3e D&D with all its fiddly math). Flip side: if I get too caught up in the numbers I'll to some degree stop paying attention to what's going on in the fiction.

As a GM I can't get as immersed in the fiction (with occasional pleasant exceptions) because I'm also there to be arbiter, referee, and CPU; meaning I pretty much always have to pay at least some attention to numbers and mechanics.

 

[James Gasik]

Or you can say, "I think back to the things I learned of giants in my youth and try to recall what this might be." which would prompt the DM to probably ask for a lore check of some kind.

Or you can say(because of the background you wrote and turned in), "My village bordered the Megalith Mountains, where many clans of giants lived. We dealt with giants on a regular basis." Prompting the DM to give you a roll of some sort, or just tell you what it is since you've probably seen one before.

That's what prior experience and lore rolls are for.

There's no need to for the only options to be to metagame or act without any knowledge of what it might be at all.

But what if the game (say, 5e D&D) doesn't actually have lore rolls by default? Now I either have to make up rules for them, or just give my players numbers. One of these sounds a bit easier...

 

[pawsplay]

+1 good, +3 good or +5 good?

Yes.

 

[Maxperson]

Yes.

Sorry, no. You can't even accurately gauge your bonuses, let alone how much better they are in the other guy. But kudos for doubling down on it!

 

[hawkeyefan]

I think folks greatly underestimate how much a trained eye can perceive and how quickly. The idea that a seasoned baseball player (even at novice level) can’t tell the difference between an 85 MPH pitch and a 105 MPH pitch, and that both would just be considered “fast” is a pretty poor assessment.

That’s a huge difference in speed, and quite noticeable to a trained eye. Even someone who’s never stepped into a batter’s box before is going to notice the difference.

Boxers and martial artists can gauge a lot by seeing a small amount of activity from an opponent. Soldiers can often tell a lot about someone’s training from very small cues.

The human mind is a powerful computer. It is constantly making measurements and performing calculations. That doesn’t mean we think in numbers, but it’s still happening. When you make a jumpshot in basketball, your brain is calculating the distance, angle, your jump, the force of the shot… all kinds of things. Nearly instantaneously.

So the characters may not know the exact numbers, but they have much much more information available to them than is typically provided. That CAN be provided, I’d say.

The players should have that information, because we’re playing the part of the PCs’ brains.

And just so everyone is clear, I don’t know of any game that doesn’t focus on the fictional elements in favor of the numbers. The idea that “it’s all just numbers” is not true at all. Most of us advocating for sharing rules and rules expressions, we share both the fiction and the math.

 

[Maxperson]

But what if the game (say, 5e D&D) doesn't actually have lore rolls by default? Now I either have to make up rules for them, or just give my players numbers. One of these sounds a bit easier...

It was easy to come up with them in 1e. 2e had a few of them. 3e brought them fully into being. 5e still has them. Other than personal preference, I see no good reason that the number should be given to the players.

 

[pawsplay]

Sorry, no. You can't even accurately gauge your bonuses, let alone how much better they are in the other guy. But kudos for doubling down on it!

Maybe I missed it, but what is the source of your expertise on combat sports?

 

[Maxperson]

Maybe I missed it, but what is the source of your expertise on combat sports?

Reality. There are no numbers and no ability to simply observe that much fine tuning in someone's combat ability.

 

[pawsplay]

Reality. There are no numbers and no ability to simply observe that much fine tuning in someone's combat ability.

So this is the reality you are bringing to the game? I'm not allowed to know bonuses or numbers, and you also are going to refuse to tell me if someone seems like a good fighter? What exactly is my role in this game?

 

[Micah Sweet]

So this is the reality you are bringing to the game? I'm not allowed to know bonuses or numbers, and you also are going to refuse to tell me if someone seems like a good fighter? What exactly is my role in this game?

Making decisions as your character.