How Visible To players Should The Rules Be?

[James Gasik]

Sure, if the conversation was only happening with one player. But it will occur with every player who attacks AC until the group effectively pins down what the AC of the thing they're fighting is...IF they ever do. I got a guy in my current group that will ask if a number hits even after he's been explicitly told what the AC of his target is, lol.

 

[Micah Sweet]

It's also about agency. Visible rules mean the players and the GM are on the same page. As a player I can make decisions about likely outcomes without further input from the GM and I can often see from my dice rolls whether my action has succeeded.

If everything is gated through the GM's narration then even with the best will in the world I am operating at a distance and any misunderstandings that result are likely to be to my detriment (as a PC and/or as an agent in the game).

I prefer player agency (once the game begins) to be filtered through the PC). You can make whatever choice you want, informed by the circumstances and who your character is.

 

[soviet]

I prefer player agency (once the game begins) to be filtered through the PC). You can make whatever choice you want, informed by the circumstances and who your character is.

OK, I have no issue with that, but it is necessarily less agency than having your choices being informed by the circumstances and who your character is and the known rules of the game.

 

[Manbearcat]

Here are some thoughts on the subject from real life:

* I played baseball through college. Having raw statistics on pitchers when I would hit against them or batters when I was on the mound was enormously helpful as a gauge for my competition. Not having those available was absolutely a loss in agency both in preparation and while on the mound/at the plate. Now, once you become a proficient ballplayer, you can assess a pitcher's command, suite of pitches, the velocity & break or run on their various pitches, and how difficult the ball is to pick up due to their delivery/arm slot. But that doesn't change the reality that having those statistics is definitely better than not and your assessment suffers for the information loss.

* I've been a BJJ practitioner since I was 19. Belts are qualitative and, sometimes off (and/or the particular player had a game/prowess that skewed significantly in one area), but being able to assess someone based on their belt (particularly visitors you're going to roll with or when you're a visitor) is significantly helpful as a tool of assessment. Removing that is a net harm (particularly in the first few minutes of rolling with someone) to agency.

* I'm an intermediate climber. Some gyms either (a) don't grade their climbs the moment they go up or (b) lump climbs together in colors that end up putting fairly significantly divergent difficulty together. Now, sometimes grades can be off a little bit and, once you're proficient enough in assessment from the ground, you can perform your own "mental grading" (and once you become extremely good at it, you can get very close to "the real grade" before even getting on the route/boulder). But that doesn't change the reality that the information loss of not having a grade is generally a net loss in the ability to assess an obstacle.

TLDR:

(1) Prowess, and especially expertise, in a discipline 100 % conveys the ability to immediately assess obstacles/opposition and give them the equivalent of a "grade/statistical spread" and that process of assessment is essential for the Orientation component of the OODA Loop (Observe, Orient, Decide, Act). Because we (the participants at the table) aren't actually "there" (within the imagined space), the proxy for this prowess/expertise in TTRPGs is having the actual numbers + an understanding of rules interactions when you're managing your decision-point. If you have any level of prowess in something, not having the numbers and rules available in a TTRPG in the first place should = anti-immersion if you care about that. (2) Since TTRPGs are games, having the actual game layer obfuscated is 100 % a net loss in agency when considering actual gameplay itself.

 

[Li Shenron]

What do you think? How much knowledge of the rules should players have, both going in (creating a character, etc) as well as during actual play? Why? What aspects of players' knoweldge and awareness of the rules and play system impacts your opinion on this?

I think you already know that there is no single answer, because the range of variety in RPG ruleset and playstyles is enormous.

I am currently the DM in a long-term 5e D&D campaign, and the player in a Call of Cthulhu campaign.

In the D&D campaign, we tend to play quite tactically when it comes to combat encounters, so our players should better remember the combat rules well, in order to choose how and when to use their special abilities and spells. On the other hand, we avoided codifying strictly the rules for visibility, hiding, searching, perception and similar, as I think the more precise you want them to be for "consistency", the more you stumble upon situations where your precise rules won't fit, and the game feels even less consistent as a result. In general, the players rely on me to sort out any highly variable or environment-dependent situation.

In the Call of Cthulhu campaign, us players don't even know the rules. The campaign is not tactical at all, combat is rare and often dealt with by only one or two characters in a short time. The DM obviously uses the rules for action resolution, but the players are playing the game mostly narratively, investigating locations and interviewing characters, then making in-character decisions without thinking too much beyond choosing actions simply "because I know my character is good at that".

I am currently pondering over DMing a Ravenloft campaign, and doing it more similar to the Call of Cthulhu one.

 

[Maxperson]

My comment about it being “untenable” was not about the game itself, but rather about hiding rules. It can’t last because the players will learn the rules through observation.

As for it being fun… sure, that’s a matter of preference. But for me, if the fun part of play is figuring out what a creature’s AC is, then I’d probably not play.

And that's fair. We all have different preferences and lines drawn in the sand. For example, I'm not going to play in a comedy game(along the lines of Xanth or something) unless it's a one shot.

By the same argument, there’s no reason not to provide a number. You’re describing communicating a quantitative element. So why not just give the quantity?

I said no need, not no reason. There is a reason not to provide the numbers, and it's the same reason to provide them. Enjoyment. Enjoyment of the game is a great reason to do either one of those, depending on what the group desires.

 

[Micah Sweet]

OK, I have no issue with that, but it is necessarily less agency than having your choices being informed by the circumstances and who your character is and the known rules of the game.

Sure, but I'm comfortable with that.

 

[Maxperson]

But the number represents a real quality that exists in the setting. At least if you interpret rules simulationistically, which I know you do. So knowing that number can simulate knowing the quality it represents.

Not really. If you watch someone throw a fastball, you aren't going to know whether the pitch was going 85 or 105. You're just going to know that it was fast. If a PC has +2 to hit and is swinging at an 18, 19 or 20 AC, he's not going to know a number. He's just going to know that the creature is hard to hit.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Not really. If you watch someone throw a fastball, you aren't going to know whether the pitch was going 85 or 105. You're just going to know that it was fast. If a PC has +2 to hit and is swing at an 18, 19 or 20 AC, he's not going to know a number. He's just going to know that the creature is hard to hit.

Close enough for me to not be worth worrying about.

 

[Reynard]

Even most tactical CRPGs don't give you that detailed stat information as default. The more I think about, the less I would want to play with people that just see a collection of numbers and not an ogre or whatever. Magic is even more fun if you lean into the themes and story of the cards.