How Visible To players Should The Rules Be?

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Lanefan

Victoria Rules
How is any of this "realistic" or "immersive"? Why is it realistic that I notice the hole in the wall, or the sweat, but not the flies? Why is it realistic that I notice the man's sweat, but not his general build, or his likely age?

Likewise, how does any of this pertain to the GM "just assuming" certain actions? @Lanefan's description assumes that the PCs look at and take note of features of the wall, but that they don't look at and take notice of flies in their immediate visual field. I mean, how is it supposed to be the case that I've identified the ceiling is 8' high and yet I haven't noticed the flies my eyes must have passed over in order to take in the ceiling?
In a setting where flies are fairly commonplace and the window is open, mentioning that there's a few in the room seems superfluous. More noteworthy would be if there weren't any flies, in a room like this.
I can see bottles on the floor under the window. The window is opposite the door (on the "far wall"). Presumably the man slumped forward in the simple wooden chair (but with no table to lean on? Why isn't he sliding off/down? Has he been nailed to the chair by the people who killed him?) is between me and the window, so how am I even seeing those bottles?
It says right in the original description that the man's head is resting face-down on the table.

And that you can see the bottles beneath the window implies either that the table-chair-man are not directly between you and the window or that they are not fully obscuring the view of the bottles (and maybe there's more empties back there that you can't see yet?).
I don't see any realism here.
Well, better would be if I could hold up a picture and say "That's what you see", elaborating on things the picture doesn't convey e.g. the smell, the heat of the room, etc. But I ain't that good an artist, so description is all they get. :)
It's all just gameplay: the GM makes a decision to dispense some information and to withhold some other information; the GM takes for granted that the players will infer some things from what is not said (eg will infer that there are no aliens with rayguns in the room because the GM didn't mention any); and the GM likewise takes for granted that the players will know - in general terms - what information might have been withheld, and hence needs to be asked about. (Or, perhaps, gated behind dice rolls.)
How is that any different than any other description in any RPG, though? Yes there's no obvious rayguns in the room, nor are there any bicycles, longswords, or fish tanks full of piranha; and it's kinda ludicrous to expect me (or any GM) to mention everything that isn't there.

And yet, in the original write-up there is one clue, where something is both mentioned in one way and not in another: there's a smell of stale cigarette smoke (noted in the description) but no ashtrays or butts or other signs of smoking are mentioned as being in the room. Why's that? Because there are no ashtrays or butts etc. and a search of the slumped man will find no cigarettes or matches; so who was smoking here, and when?
The sort of gameplay implicit in @Lanefan's set up - which I've described in some earlier posts, and also just above - is not very interesting to me. If the highlight of a "gumshoe" game is asking twenty questions of the GM to get a description of a sweaty man in a room, so that the play experience is not dissimilar to poking a Gygaxian dungeon room with a 10' pole, then count me out.

What's interesting about the room is the man in it; and what is interesting about the man is whether he's dead or alive, and whether or not he's the person I'm looking for. The GM is able to dispense that information. So why not do so? Either "You open the door, into a poorly furnished office. There's a man sitting, slumped, in the simple wooden chair. Flies are hovering about and above him. You can't see his face. He looks like his dead." Or "You open the door, into a poorly furnished office. There's a man sitting, slumped, in the simple wooden chair. Flies are hovering about and above him. He barely stirs in response to you, but from his breathing and his sweat you can see he's alive."
This might just point to difference in preference as to degree of detail. You-as-player have for some reason fixated on the flies, and thus left them in your short-form description even when there's other elements here that are - or potentially could be - far more important to the PCs.

The fist-hole in the wall could, for example, go right through to another room where someone is listening; and maybe it's that careless person's cigarette smoke that has drifted into this room. The bottles could be of a particular liquor known for its potency...or could be empty pop bottles, with the smell of liquor being due to the man intentionally spilling some on himself earlier to enhance his fakery of being drunk...or could just be cheap bourbon. The open window could be a clue, if it's the sort of neighbourhood where nobody usually dares leave a window open. Etc.

The possibilities are endless. Give the players room to engage with them at their pace and choice.
Now the players can engage with the man, or check out the room, or whatever they want to do, without having that interesting stuff gated behind a bizarre dance of the seven veils as to the basic set-up of the scene.
The "basic set-up of the scene" consists of what they see (and smell!) in the first few seconds after opening the door. Determining anything about the slumped man is going to take a longer look than that, even if only waiting to see if he's breathing.
 

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Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Probably worth noting here that there's a very big difference between trusting the GM and trusting the setting that the GM is describing. Let's not conflate these things.
 

Cadence

Legend
Supporter
I'm contemplating how long it would take to describe everything in the room I'm in.

"The orange towel that drapes over the right door to the left armoire must be at least 5' long when fully laid out, although it is hard to tell at first because the part hanging down between the cracks of the two doors dips into the first drawer that is open. The towel is a faded orange color, with a light band about 3" from the end. The light band is the color of pumpkin rind and edged by white...."

Don't even get me started on the top of the armoires, the two night stands, the pile in the corner, and what is visible in the three laundry baskets, or the photo set on the wall over the armoire, and what is possibly visible through the mini blinds out the four windows.
 
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Cadence

Legend
Supporter
I'm contemplating how long it would take to describe everything in the room I'm in.

"The orange towel that drapes over the right door to the left armoire must be at least 5' long when fully laid out, although it is hard to tell at first because the part hanging down between the cracks of the two doors dips into the first drawer that is open. The towel is a faded orange color, with a light band about 3" from the end. The light band is the color of pumpkin rind and edged by white...."

Don't even get me started on the top of the armoires, the two night stands, the pile in the corner, and what is visible in the three laundry baskets, or the photo set on the wall over the armoire, and what is possibly visible through the mini blinds out the four windows.

Poop. I didn't even mention the bed or the closet or the telephone stand or the laundry hamper or the lights over the windows with the stuffed rabbit sitting on the wood in front of them, or which way the door opens means that someone could be hiding behind it, or the sound of the air cleaner that is almost muted by the water running in the bath tub down the hall. The ceiling is vaulted with large beams and the wood laid over the beams might be tongue and groove but you obviously can't tell for sure. The closet might have a large space someone could be hiding in that you couldn't see without going fully into the room because it's in the same wall the entry door is (although if you had gone in the bathroom or downstairs bedroom you might have a good guess). The door's top and bottom are not parallel, perhaps so that it can open without scraping the floor that has settled. There is a phone jack next to the light switch with nothing in it and... do you want the titles of all the books even if you could 't see many without moving them?

Well, the bed and places someone could be hiding felt important anyway. (King, foam mattress over real box spring - but AI guess that would be hard to tell without touching it?, probably a 10" space under the metal frame.)

Sorry, I'll stop now.
 
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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
It very much was with many GMs that I’ve played with. And it was when I ran my games this way.
I believe you. It has nothing to do with the playstyle. It was 100% the DMs you played with. The style isn't inherently that way.
Generally speaking, I think that virtually all descriptions that a GM can provide will necessarily fall short of what information would be available to the characters. This has been a significant part of my point.
All numbers will similarly fall short. The descriptions are every bit as good as numbers. Better if you don't like having the numbers.
Do you agree with that? Or do you at least understand what I’m saying?
I absolutely agree that the DM cannot convey all the information a PC would have. I don't agree that numbers are better at it than descriptions. As I said above, numbers also fall short.
 

grankless

Adventurer
Also: immersion exists only as an internal sensation with no defined definition. It is impossible for a game rule, or anything at all, to inherently encourage or discourage immersion. You either experience it or you don't, and you may engage with certain rules in a way that promotes it within yourself, but the rules are not doing anything at all to the immersion. I read a very silly reddit post yesterday where someone was complaining that the turn-based combat in Baldur's Gate 3 was "less immersive" than the real time with pause of BG1 and 2. For many people it seems that immersion only exists as a shorthand by which to say "I don't like [x]".
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
How is any of this "realistic" or "immersive"? Why is it realistic that I notice the hole in the wall, or the sweat, but not the flies? Why is it realistic that I notice the man's sweat, but not his general build, or his likely age?
Because "realistic" is not a dichotomy. It's not an all or nothing thing. "Realistic" = a measure of realism. "Realism" =/= mirrors reality.

If I have a wall, that's realistic because walls exist in reality. If I make it brick, it is even more realistic because both bricks and walls exist in reality. If I have flies on the wall, it's even MORE realistic, because all three are in reality. Failing to have flies, however, does not remove the realism that bricks and walls add.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I'm contemplating how long it would take to describe everything in the room I'm in.

"The orange towel that drapes over the right door to the left armoire must be at least 5' long when fully laid out, although it is hard to tell at first because the part hanging down between the cracks of the two doors dips into the first drawer that is open. The towel is a faded orange color, with a light band about 3" from the end. The light band is the color of pumpkin rind and edged by white...."

Don't even get me started on the top of the armoires, the two night stands, the pile in the corner, and what is visible in the three laundry baskets, or the photo set on the wall over the armoire, and what is possibly visible through the mini blinds out the four windows.
You forgot to mention the thread on the towel that is coming loose, the faded corner. The armoire's drawers. The scratches on the armoire. And a million other details that would take the entire session and still not get all the detail described. So it's a good thing that realism and being realistic doesn't require anywhere remotely close to all of that detail.

As I mentioned to @pemerton, realistic/realism is not a dichotomy. It's a scale. The DM needs to balance that scale based on what the players want. Some want more description, and some less.
 

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