How will superior implements work?

[Turtlejay]

I'm on board with brutal/high crit, I'd also like to see them enhance the class ability, like a wizard with a superior wand (double wand? wand whip? bastard wand?) getting a rider effect with his 1/encounter bonus to hit, or getting additional uses of it, or something. Of course, that only addresses wizards, but I thought it would be cool if these implements, rather than just moar damage, did interesting things.

Jay

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

The issue I have with the whole concept is that there is a pretty potent argument against every option:

Ported weapon properties like brutal and high crit - not really generally applicable to spells. It would work for many but would basically devalue all non-damaging spells.

To hit bonus - this makes no sense, get a higher plus implement. How is this actually different from the expertise feats anyway? Its just a basically mandatory extra feat that gives some static stackable to-hit bonus.

ANY kind of universal damage bonus - again, its just a "do more damage" feat. Still devalues non-damaging spells.

ANY sort of situational damage boosts or pretty much anything else of this ilk - Uh, isn't this why you get a magical implement? Only positive comment would be it creates a huge number of new permutations of basically magic implements without the need to actually put out a book full of them. OTOH is it likely worth the cost of a feat to gain access to these items? Just save yourself the feat slot for some basically equivalent feat that works with ANY implement.

There are a very few pretty weak counterarguments but I don't see them as justifying a whole complicated new subsystem being added to the game. OK, it makes it possible to get something out of using a non-magical implement, but so what? Every level 2 PC has a magic implement and they STILL have to burn a feat slot to get access to these better implements? Just take Implement Expertise etc...

I also have to wonder how this feat is going to work at all. Are these things just considered entirely new types of implement? If not then why can't my wand wizard just pick up a superior wand right now? If it was a weapon then there's a loss of the proficiency bonus, but implements don't have proficiency bonuses...

Overall I'm mystified. Still haven't seen any good argument for where there is space in the 4e design for these things. I'm suspicious too. They've been delayed once already (and maybe were left out of the core rules to start with) possibly because they haven't actually found an implementation that is very satisfying. Now we're getting SOMETHING, but its all hush hush. Like are they nervous that the implementation isn't that great and don't want to stir up a whole bunch of criticism before they spring this on us or what?

 

[abeattie]

Could just wind up being something hokey like a staff with an orb in it, a rod covered in runes that acts like a tome, orbs on the ends of daggers, silliness like that which would stack up well with the paragon feat for a second class feature.

Tack on bigger damage dice on crit, and a spell focused bonus (like use 2d6 with magic missile rather than 2d4) and you could wind up with something that feels superior without actually crushing the mechanics.

 

[Ryujin]

To hit bonus - this makes no sense, get a higher plus implement. How is this actually different from the expertise feats anyway? Its just a basically mandatory extra feat that gives some static stackable to-hit bonus.

Except that you can only go so far with higher level stuff. A scaling hit bonus could be used in order to perform the "math fix" in the same way that the masterwork armours do, thereby removing the need for the various expertise feats.

 

[abeattie]

Except that you can only go so far with higher level stuff. A scaling hit bonus could be used in order to perform the "math fix" in the same way that the masterwork armours do, thereby removing the need for the various expertise feats.

That would only work if you took the expertise feats out as well -- since I can't think of too many players who wouldn't gladly break the math in their favor (and then complain about easy encounters).

 

[Ryujin]

That would only work if you took the expertise feats out as well -- since I can't think of too many players who wouldn't gladly break the math in their favor (and then complain about easy encounters).

Works for me.

 

[mneme]

I think that like Superior Weapons, it's important to provide a set of choices, rather than One Better Option.

But...moar damage is part of it. Damage is the core currency in D&D4 -- it's the primary mechanism for effectiveness. One can provide damage in a number of ways -- from assigning vulnarabilities to die rerolling (including brutal) to adding a static amount of damage to adding significant crit damage or to the crit range -- but one of the foci of 4e was making damage more important, rather than a plethora of non-damage currencies, and it's mostly worked.

So, in the general spirit, and playing around:

Wand: +1 to hit (equiv: broadsword -> bastard sword)
Staff: +1 AC, inflicts +d8/tier on a critical
Rod: Can reroll each damage die once, but must keep the new value.
Orb: +1 damage, +1 to ongoing damage inflicted with spells.
Totem: Summons, Spirit, and Wild Shape inflict +1 damage per die (could be different types of superior totems)
Summoning Tome: Summoned creatures and conjurations gain brutal(2).
General Tome: +1 damage if you wield this tome with both hands. Double the range on ranged spells cast through this implement.
Holy Symbol: (has to vary, but) inflicts vunlerable(Radient) 1/tier on a hit.
Superior Implement Weapon: Implements powers used through this weapon inflict 1[W] per 2d6, 2d4, or 1d8, or 1d10 of power damage. Retain any damage that cannot be converted. Brutal, High Crit, and Versitile applies to converted weapon damage when used as an implement, but not other spell damage.

 

[mneme]

Ported weapon properties like brutal and high crit - not really generally applicable to spells. It would work for many but would basically devalue all non-damaging spells.

By that logic, the much greater damage options of weapon-using strikers also devalue all non-damaging spells. No?

Overall I'm mystified. Still haven't seen any good argument for where there is space in the 4e design for these things.

I think the space is in exclusivity -- the key to things like this (and to diferent weapon types, and to racial feats and multiclass feats and dragonmarks and channel divinity feats) is that rather than presenting a single upgrade set, you present a set of exclusive upgrades -- thus, sure, as a whole you're upping the power available, if you do your job right, none of the options are clear winners compared to the others. The current space for implement prof is because there's a clean void on the implement side where on the martial side you've got not only superior weapons, but weapon type specific feats, weapon-specific multiclass feats, etc. The implement side has nice things like the White Lotus feats, but exclusive feats are allowed to be better than stackable things, for very good reasons.

The way -I- would do it is that rather than having a superior implement at all, you have a bunch of implement specific feats, each of which is exclusive (eg, an Implement Mastery by another name). Take it, and all implements of that type are much better for you in some way. Another option is to have proficiencies (and superior implements don't get their specials for you if you don't have proficiency in them, or something). But there's certainly space in the design -- particularly since you can support pretty much any type (one space I didn't hit was an implement that gave save penalties, but that's another obvious place to go).

 

[GMforPowergamers]

So, in the general spirit, and playing around:

Wand: +1 to hit (equiv: broadsword -> bastard sword)
Staff: +1 AC, inflicts +d8/tier on a critical
Rod: Can reroll each damage die once, but must keep the new value.
Orb: +1 damage, +1 to ongoing damage inflicted with spells.
Totem: Summons, Spirit, and Wild Shape inflict +1 damage per die (could be different types of superior totems)
Summoning Tome: Summoned creatures and conjurations gain brutal(2).
General Tome: +1 damage if you wield this tome with both hands. Double the range on ranged spells cast through this implement.
Holy Symbol: (has to vary, but) inflicts vunlerable(Radient) 1/tier on a hit.
Superior Implement Weapon: Implements powers used through this weapon inflict 1[W] per 2d6, 2d4, or 1d8, or 1d10 of power damage. Retain any damage that cannot be converted. Brutal, High Crit, and Versitile applies to converted weapon damage when used as an implement, but not other spell damage.

I was homebrewing things like this...where each implment had a bonus just for type. to go with [w]'s

Wand- D8's for +1 to hit (accurate) D4's for magic crits
Staff- D6's for +1 to AC (Fortifing) D8's for magic crits
Orb- D4's for +1 to saves (Invasive) D6's for magic crits

Rod- D8's for Brutal 1 (brutal) D8's for magic crits

Holy Symbol- D6's for +1 to damage (Faith empowered) D6's magic crits

Totem- no idea

Tomb- no idea

 

[lukelightning]

Hopefully they will let implement users catch up to all the lovin' that weapon users get. Bracers of Iron Might, magical ammunition, brutal/high crit/etc. weapon properties all make my wizard jealous.