How would a dragon dive bomb?

[buzzard]

OK you B.A.D.D. fellows, give me some pointers here. I'm going to be running an adventure which involves some dragons attacking people in reasonably open ground. They emerge from a forest and attack. However I expect the party, which is very tactically sound to do a lot to curtail the dragon's ability to strafe low enough to use their breath weapons (judicious use of walls of force, walls of ice, etc.). Thus I have to think of an alternative. Dragons are pretty smart critters of course, so once they realize that their traditional attack from isn't going to fly, they will find a better method. I'm thinking that they will pick up large logs or rocks and dive bomb with them. With their strength they should be able to lift objects of about 600lbs as a light load. Dropping this from 50' you get an attack of 7d6 on a hit. Thus I have some questions:
A) How would you adjudicate this attack? Just a normal ranged attack?
B) Is this likely, or do you have a better tactical suggestion?
C) How long you you place between attacks? They will have to fly out and go find logs, but how long will that reasonably take?

buzzard

 

[Azure Trance]

In regards to C), I don't see why a dragon cannot use it's massive claws to grab a tree and rip it up from its roots as a standard action.

 

[Vlos]

Rocks

First, you need to adjust your weapon damage.

A thrown rock does about 1d3 (dont have books in front of me). Now make that 1 pound rock 600 pounds (weapon size increase), then a fallen rock is probably going quicker than most thrown rocks, thus an even higher increase in damage for speed (7d6 just seems way too low).

Yeah, I would allow them to rip up trees or other things near by. Even corpse of fallen fighters (though for much less damage than a rock, unless loaded in full plate or something).

Also if there are multiple, they could play bait and catch. One lands to engage them on the ground, when the PC's advance, he just simply lifts off and the other one hits them with breath weapon.

Plus depending on the age of the dragon, his spells may allow him other attacks specifically designed to counter this type of protection/defenses.

 

[mmu1]

First, you need to adjust your weapon damage.

A thrown rock does about 1d3 (dont have books in front of me). Now make that 1 pound rock 600 pounds (weapon size increase), then a fallen rock is probably going quicker than most thrown rocks, thus an even higher increase in damage for speed (7d6 just seems way too low).

Yeah, I would allow them to rip up trees or other things near by. Even corpse of fallen fighters (though for much less damage than a rock, unless loaded in full plate or something).

Also if there are multiple, they could play bait and catch. One lands to engage them on the ground, when the PC's advance, he just simply lifts off and the other one hits them with breath weapon.

Plus depending on the age of the dragon, his spells may allow him other attacks specifically designed to counter this type of protection/defenses.

There are rules for damage from falling objects, and that's where (I assume) he's getting the 7d6. A 100' dragon should be able to just land on an adventurer and squash him, just like a 250 lb fighter in 50lbs of armor should be able to jump down on a 125lb mage from 10' up and break him in half - what should happen in the real world has nothing to do with D&D mechanics.

And there's nothing automatic about tearing out trees just because they happen to be dragons - establish a DC and have them make a STR check, or require them to "sunder" the trunk if they want to grab the tree that way. Of course, they're supposed to be smart, so they could simply have a prepared cache of boulders or logs if they lair in the area.

As for the attack - I'd say a regular ranged attack with some penalties for using an improvised weapon and range increments.

 

[Tilla the Hun (work)]

I'm a relative veteran of dragon tactics due to my enjoyment of throwing them at a tactically minded group I ran a game for

How many dragons are we talking, what type/age, and what level of party? Have the dragons encountered foes of these power levels before?

Tactics would change depending on the answers, but as a brief summary, try these tips...

1) Tactical spells from party to block BW's from dragons is a great way for a dragon to minimize the effectiveness of a spellcaster... Sure cast that force wall this morning, I'll leave and observe from far away (scry, etc) and come back when it's down. You memorized 4 of them? Heh, just how many spells of that level can you cast? Since the walls aren't affecting me much, I'll just keep leaving and coming back

2) Throwing things on a dive bomb is a wonderful idea. Imagine a tree as being a club increased in size, then thrown. If you're being nice, penalize for improvised weaponry. Average about 50' tree height means it's a colossal club. Add in dragons str. damage for thrown projectile so as to not be limited by falling damage. You'll find you're doing more than 7d6 damage . This tactic would only apply if the dragons are of the 'attack now' mindset and are unwilling/unable to move to a more guerilla style tactic.

3) A dragons greatest strength against any opposition is it's flight (i.e. speed) and it's breath weapon. These are the #1 weapons used in any fight between dragonkind - claws are a close second, spells work if the situation is right.

Younger dragons won't always be tactically minded - against humanoids, they'll be arrogant and cocky, quite liable to make tactical mistakes, like try to squash a man in armor like a bug (ooo the pain of a lance/long sword impalement).

Older dragons have combated mages and knights before, and will often refuse to charge the party in any straight line, including tossing trees/boulders around. I've used a similar tactic before though with a variation... High altitude bombing runs with large (medium load) boulders. Even close misses rather disturb the party, and there's not much they can do about it.

These dragons know their strengths and the dangers that a party of adventurers can toss at them - at least in a general fashion. Landing is a nono under any circumstances, for example. Spellcasters tire of casting spells relatively quickly if you can get them to throw spells around for little purpose (like the walls to block BW's). BW's never run out.

Hit and run tactics, especially with more than one dragon, will wear out enemy spells relatively quickly. High altitude bombing runs will rattle the party and often soak up healing spells fairly quickly, fast flybys with BW's on surprise attacks will likely soak up the wall spells to have little effect.

Tell me the answers to the questions above and I'll be able to zero in on more specific tactics detailed to the dragons in question.

Remember, dragons are people too!

 

[buzzard]

I'm a relative veteran of dragon tactics due to my enjoyment of throwing them at a tactically minded group I ran a game for

How many dragons are we talking, what type/age, and what level of party? Have the dragons encountered foes of these power levels before?

The encounter is composed of 3 adult green dragons. They are waiting in a forest for the party to approach. In fact the dragons have been warned of their coming. Of course all the available buffing spells will be up (which at that age aren't really many).

I'm going to make the assumption that they have dealt with some adventurers before. In any case their parent certainly has, and may well have taught them some useful lessons.

Any advice you can offer will be greatly appreciated.

buzzard

 

[Darklone]

Hmm. Simply let them drop themselves from great heights on the players. The dragons will most likely survive 20d6 falling damage.... And cast heal afterwards

 

[buzzard]

Hmm. Simply let them drop themselves from great heights on the players. The dragons will most likely survive 20d6 falling damage.... And cast heal afterwards

You grossly overestimate their spellcasting ability. At that age category, they have a maximum of 2nd level spells. Also given the people I'm facing, 20d6 won't cut it for half of them.

buzzard

 

[Tilla the Hun (work)]

ooo This'll be fun

I'll assume the following points (correct me if I'm wrong on any, but the general concepts should still apply barring major inaccuracies) since I don't have my books on me at the moment.

1) 3 Adult Green Dragons = EL ~14-15, thus your party's avg lvl is 13-15?
2) Adult Green Dragon BW = 10D6 Cone Acid Gas? With full corrosive capabilities? 1/1d4 rnds, right?

Terrain = forest edge and they have been warned (always a nasty thing)

First things first - remember that dragons are characters too. Be sure to fluff out their full skills and feats that are possible to them. Consider dropping to young adult greens in order to add in class levels and really shock your party


Forget about starting with buff spells They tend to fade fast in a guerilla style of warfare tactics - and what sane dragon is going to go toe to toe with a party without doing something to soften them up first? Well, maybe a young dragon would, but soon enough they'll learn that arrows, fireballs, magic missiles, etc. HURT if you get too close . Traps in the woods would be great fun to lead party members into if chased.

Ambush to start - as the party is trooping along (floating, walking, riding, etc.) the first green dragon makes a full move action at the max height he can fly and still use his BW on the party, from behind the party. Give 'em a DC25 spot check or spot check opposed to the dragons move silently rolls. Even if they spot the dragon, there's no time to react before the cone of acid gas + dragon fear washes over the party. Remember to have each riding animal make it's saving throw vs dragon fear (will save) or gallop away out of control - this could seperate your party, so be prepared in order to avoid a TPK. Also don't forget the affect of an acid cloud on party equipment... mage robes, swords, etc. - that'll apply to anyone who actually failed their reflex saving throws, i.e. hopefully the fighters

The party will start reacting, but the dragon just keeps flying away. If they are all focused on the first one, the second makes the same attack run if no magic has been unleashed (and be wary of readied actions and requisite specificity of same - if they trigger off the first dragon, they don't trigger off the second ) If the party has split, the second one can veer after any obvious fighter character types that are split off and do a snatch and fling, or just snatch and fly high to drop or snatch, fly high and throw on second init.

By this time, the party will gear up for a dragon flight. Flight spells, walls of force, etc. That's fine. The dragons leave, maybe they got one (the one that split off) or maybe not. 40' flight will outrun a wizards flight nicely. The third dragon remains well hidden, under water or wherever, and observes the party, identifying mages, clerics, and fighter types.

Peace descends upon the party for an hour or two, until they start to move again. More braced this time, they'll observe the two dragons apparently returning - merely flying much higher. Make projectile rolls at 250' up in the air for the dragons dropping medium load boulders at the party, and let the dragons fly off. If the party is ready, this'll absorb more force walls, healings, etc. If not, this'll hurt a lot and then absorb quite a few healings - assuming the dragons come close. Whether or not they do, every fifteen minutes or however long you deem it would take to retrieve trees or boulders, new stuff drops from the sky on them.

Sooner or later, they'll retreat into the forest to spoil the aerial aim. There's not really a whole lot else they can do against this kind of attack especially once the mage starts running low on spells. At this point, switch from high altitude bombing to low altitude, high speed strafing runs at intermittent periods with BW's active.

That's how I'd at least open up. I'll post back later tonight when I have my books and have thought about this some more. I'm thinking they should have shapeshifting of some form and can turn humanoid? If so, the third dragon can skulk in through the woods fairly close, shift, and do a snatch/fly to leave with a cleric/healer type. There's more and other stuff they could do tactically, just depending on exactly what they can do... Can't they do a chlorine gas attack as well? Just find a hollow spot the party will walk through and fill it with chlorine, then BW attack them while they are in it. With a few spells, magic items of their own, they could even fence the party in and let 'em suffocate

But more precise stuff later.

Do the greens have magic items? I'd think it'd be unfair, and you'd be leaning towards a TPK... but, ya know.

Any help so far?

 

[Greatwyrm]

I'd probably make it an area of affect attack. A line 5 or 10 feet wide and 30 to 60 feet long. Damage per a large falling object. Give it a reflex save based on the dragon's strength. This would give the effect of the rocks hitting the ground and bouncing/rolling along until they come to rest against a tree or over an adventurer.