How would a dragon dive bomb?

[Tilla the Hun (work)]

I'd probably make it an area of affect attack. A line 5 or 10 feet wide and 30 to 60 feet long. Damage per a large falling object. Give it a reflex save based on the dragon's strength. This would give the effect of the rocks hitting the ground and bouncing/rolling along until they come to rest against a tree or over an adventurer.

*cackle* actually, wouldn't it be awfully similar to a catapult or trebuchet boulder hitting? except with a strength modifier to damage? *cackle* FLYING CATAPULTS!!! *cackle*

 

[allenw]

Also don't forget the affect of an acid cloud on party equipment... mage robes, swords, etc. - that'll apply to anyone who actually failed their reflex saving throws, i.e. hopefully the fighters

Ever since 3.0, attended equipment is *only* subject to damage if the bearer rolls a 1 on their save die (or if the attack form specifically says otherwise), and even then only 1 item is affected.

 

[Wolffenjugend]

And even then, green dragons breathe poison gas not acid.

 

[Tilla the Hun (work)]

And Atilla begins to see why B.A.D.D. was formed, and even considers joining

Listen up y'all - from the SRD direct to you...

Regarding Green Dragon capabilities:

Age: Adult
Speed: 40 ft., fly 150 ft. (poor), swim 40 ft
Initiative: +0
AC: 27 (–2 size, +19 natural), touch 8, flat-footed 27
Special Abilities: Immunity Acid, water breathing, Suggestion, 5th level sorceror abilities, DR 5/Magic, and SR of 21

....

Breath Weapon (Su): A green dragon has one type of breath weapon, a cone of corrosive (acid) gas.
Water Breathing (Ex): A green dragon can breathe underwater indefinitely and can freely use its breath weapon, spells, and other abilities while submerged.
Spell-Like Abilities: 3/day—suggestion (adult or older), dominate person (ancient or older); 1/day— plant growth (old or older), command plants (great wyrm).
Skills: Bluff, Hide, and Move Silently are considered class skills for green dragons.

Acid, not poison, for Green Dragon BW. FYI - read the combat section and you'll note my tactics for adult green dragons warned of incoming adventurers actually fit their combat tactics...

Regarding rolling 1 on a save - AGREE:

Items Surviving after a Saving Throw: Unless the descriptive text for the spell specifies otherwise, all items carried or worn by a creature are assumed to survive a magical attack. If a creature rolls a natural 1 on its saving throw against the effect, however, an exposed item is harmed (if the attack can harm objects). Refer to Table: Items Affected by Magical Attacks. Determine which four objects carried or worn by the creature are most likely to be affected and roll randomly among them. The randomly determined item must make a saving throw against the attack form and take whatever damage the attack deal.
If an item is not carried or worn and is not magical, it does not get a saving throw. It simply is dealt the appropriate damage.

Except that you didn't read it closely enough... "Unless the descriptive text for the spell specifies otherwise"

Using Monte's approach to reasoning through this,
BW = Supernatural ability, no descriptive text detailing effect. Closest related spell from sorc/wiz listing is Acid Fog - not quite the same, but closest related spell.

Acid fog creates a billowing mass of misty vapors similar to that produced by a solid fog spell. In addition to slowing creatures down and obscuring sight, this spell’s vapors are highly acidic. Each round on your turn, starting when you cast the spell, the fog deals 2d6 points of acid damage to each creature and object within it.
Arcane Material Component: A pinch of dried, powdered peas combined with powdered animal hoof.

A cone of acid gas would seem to be extremely similar to 1 round of acid fog at first look - debatable, but it's what I use to judge the effects of the acid cloud.

Note that it states it deals damage to each creature and object. I've adjudicated this in the past to mean attended objects whose attendee (horse, character, etc) failed their save and/or unattended objects. I feel this is a) fair and b) completely within the rules. If you can cite a source for a better descriptor to a dragons BW, by all means please do so, I enjoy being enlightened.

Oh, and in addition (on the same subject of saving throws), don't forget:

Saving Throws: Nonmagical, unattended items never make saving throws. They are considered to have failed their saving throws, so they always are affected by spells. An item attended by a character (being grasped, touched, or worn) makes saving throws as the character (that is, using the character’s saving throw bonus).
Magic items always get saving throws. A magic item’s Fortitude, Reflex, and Will save bonuses are equal to 2 + one-half its caster level. An attended magic item either makes saving throws as its owner or uses its own saving throw bonus, whichever is better.

Magic items always get a save, period.

 

[buzzard]

Keep the ideas comming. This is good.
Let me put one a couple constraints on this:
A) This is only one encounter, and I don't want it to last too long.
B) This has to be as by the book as possible. I want this to be an open and shut rules lawyer case. Any iffy interpretations of the rules, I won't use. I know I can drop things on them and base the damage on height and weight, so I will use that. Things like saying that the attack is area with reflex saves is an interpretation, and I don't want to have to go there. This isn't a home group, but an organized event. I want to make sure I'm going by the letter of the law. In any case the group I'm judging for is quite the bunch of twinks, so their reflex saves are pretty disgusting.

Also, another bit of information, the party knows the dragons are on the way, so ambushes are going to be of limited utility.

buzzard

 

[Darklone]

You grossly overestimate their spellcasting ability. At that age category, they have a maximum of 2nd level spells. Also given the people I'm facing, 20d6 won't cut it for half of them.

buzzard

20d6 to the dragons, 20d6 + damage for the weight of the dragons to the PCs

Sadly no heal (IIRC green dragons don't have cleric spells? Brainfart on my behalf).

Hmm. No polymorphing into cute puppy dogs either. Mirror Image?

 

[Tilla the Hun (work)]

Rules interps in an official event as a no - roger, I haven't done that here, just corrected a coupla misinterps by others The only potentially iffy thing is the BW. I'd agree, for an official event, nerf it and don't hit the attended objects. There's enough UNattended objects that would clearly be hit to have fun enough with. Besides, these 3 green dragons, if properly played, could kill the party, twinks or no twinks, so go ahead and nerf that BW. It's still going to get all their pack saddles, saddles of non-mounted horses, and etc. Fyi - I'm the resident rules lawyer in our 3.5 DND game

Anyway - in researching those misinterps I discovered that the SRD actually has entries on the dragons Never realized that (I play with the books 99% of the time )

Now, you state that the players know the dragons are coming - I had though the dragons knew the players were coming, not vice verse. I'll assume both parties know the other is around.

That does not negate ambush tactics. Indeed, the green dragons, if they have any inkling of the formidability of the party, will seek to use ambush/guerilla tactics as much as possible. Heh, even Custer was known to say that the best way to spring an ambush was to walk into it...


That said, let me flesh out the dragons plan a little more and see what you think...

Sneed, Teed, and Meed are the dragons, let's say (or would you prefer Curly, Larry, and Moe?)

Sneed hides in a nearby lake/pond, with Teed and Meed covering the lake/pond in scum, etc, so that he can't be seen. Teed and Meed take cover within nearby forested areas. Using Summon Monster from sorceror spell list, bait and decoy the party to within 150' of Sneed. Dragon Fear hits, causing dispersion of riding animals, if any, or even party members with weak will saves. Teed and Meed take off, using the forest as cover, to setup strafing run. Party does whatever it wants to do - likely buff like mad, possibly attempt to detect the dragon. Misdirection and other Sorc spells will nicely contest any diviners in the group. Meanwhile, Teed and Meed load up on previously ripped up trees (they had warning, remember?) and take to high altitude bombing with huge clubs being thrown - follow the rules for thrown clubs, increase damage per the rules for weapon size. Compare thrown huge club damage + str to falling damage from same, and use the higher of the two (100% by the rules). Throw the clubs at around 200' away/up and you'll avoid 90% of their attacks at you, excepting only higher level/range spells, and well, you have a SR of 21, so that should hold you fairly well in combo with good saves.
While Teed and Meed are tossing logs at the invaders, Sneed is observing to pick out the cleric and the mage. Being huge, and allowed at least two attacks (one for each claw), his tactic after identifying the magic using targets will be to fly out from cover under the water, and using flyby attack and snatch, grapple the cleric and fly awy with him. Flyby attack allows the use of a standard action at any point during your move action. Thus, use a move action to double move, striking with a claw when passing the cleric. Start a grapple due to snatch and most likely win without some puissant buffs on that cleric. Finish your move action (300') by heading as up as you would allow as a GM.
Once Sneed makes his move, Teed and Meed hurl any remaining logs they are carrying and begin making low altitude strafing runs with their breath weapons. If necessary to prevent hostile missile fire, Sneed (before he makes his move) can cast darkness on the party's area, or if he's moved, either of the other dragons can once they start making their strafing runs.
If the magic users foil the dragons tactics before Sneed makes his move, Teed and Meed will retreat into the depths of the forest, and Sneed will lay low. These are all 5th level sorcerors and they'll know that effects like force wall, etc. will fade in minutes. They'll just retreat, lay low for an hour, and come back with more logs. If the party moves out from under protection, sneed can use message or whispering wind to communicate it to the others, and they can relaunch their attack very quickly.

All three are indeed 5th level sorcs, and thus have access to such things as true strike, bull strength, cats grace, fireball, acid arrow, etc.

All of which Sneed can toss from beneath his water covery without being detected - especially if such were coordinated with identical strikes from the others. With a little work, they could even present a convincing illusion that fireballs were coming 'through' the force wall that's put up. That might be a little iffy, but Sneed should be able to cast spells without hindrance from the water as the SRD indicates.

For brutal, straightforward tactics:

All thre manuever to opposite sides of the party without being seen. Via message they all launch an all out charge at the same time. All three moving at the same time, breathing at the same time, grappling three targets (one each) using snatch and crushing anyone not wielding a sharp weaon using the Crush feat. Round two - take off and leave anything not being held behind. Wait 15 minutes, buff, and repeat.

Simpler tactics, easier for a brute force minded party to deal with, could be more fun.

 

[Darklone]

Lvl5 sorcerers don't have level 3 spells.

But I like that tactic with a flying dragon out of reach in sight, then attacks by summoned monsters... the group probably buffs like hell... and the dragons wait half an hour for the next attack

 

[Tilla the Hun (work)]

Lvl5 sorcerers don't have level 3 spells.

But I like that tactic with a flying dragon out of reach in sight, then attacks by summoned monsters... the group probably buffs like hell... and the dragons wait half an hour for the next attack

You're right - I was thinking wizard spell progression - apologies. Still, that only removes cats grace, fireball, etc.

They still have True Strike at 6 + CHA mod (avg +3). 8 TS snatchs on the flyby attack and there really shouldn't be a whole lotta party left

 

[allenw]

Regarding rolling 1 on a save - AGREE:



Except that you didn't read it closely enough... "Unless the descriptive text for the spell specifies otherwise"

Not only did I read it, I quoted it in my message. And neither the Green Dragon's Breath Weapon, nor the not-really-all-that-similar Acid Fog spell (which is quite nasty enough as written, thank you) "specify otherwise" in their text. Therefore, neither one damages attended objects, unless a 1 is rolled for the save (and Acid Fog has no save, so that can't happen for it). Until the bearer's death, that is, at which point all his objects become unattended. DMs option whether that inlcudes the round that death occurs.