How would a dragon dive bomb?

[Darklone]

You're right - I was thinking wizard spell progression - apologies. Still, that only removes cats grace, fireball, etc.

They still have True Strike at 6 + CHA mod (avg +3). 8 TS snatchs on the flyby attack and there really shouldn't be a whole lotta party left

Uhm, can large dragons snatch a medium sized player?

Checked: No they can't... size huge is prerequisite...

We are still talking about 3 large green dragons, right?

 

[Azalnubizar]

Well, the dragons are all adult, they are three (the players won’t be much more than two times their number) and you want to make the encounter short.

IMO you should head for a all-out-attack.
Furthermore, I do not believe, that the dragons would benefit too much from the guerillia-style attack... ( a long range spell as fireball would hit one with 13d6 = 45.5 pt of damage... they only have 230!)

First, consider not taking the standard-dragons. Roll dice for their stats (one is probably pretty good on charisma – the main-caster, one will be the fighting-machine and so on...)

Next we need to make use of their skills.
Use magic device can be very, very usefull, but let’s consider they have no magic items available (IMO they should at least get access to the magic items of their hoard!!).
Unexpected skills can be your best friend: Bluff, Hide, MoveSilently

Two of them should concentrate on Hide/MoveSilent, One should concentrate on Bluff.

Next – it’s your Battleground to prepare! IMO the dragons should make life hard for characters that do not fly.
Dig wholes in the ground in front of the forest. Take trees from the forest and throw them all over the place.
Now movement in very much limited, you can still move around freely and you got places to hide now.

If at all possible, you should fill at least some of the wholes with water = even better places to hide in.
Now it’s time for the party to show up.
They will start moving through the carnage toward the border of the forest.
They will see a dragon waiting for them. This will be the „Bluff“-Dragon. He will act as if one of his wings isn’t working and therefore he can’t fly. While the dragon advances slowly the party will concentrate on the dragon and on buffing themselves up – this is the time, where the two sneaky dragons can approach from both sides (if possible under water).

Now let’s consider meele. One dragon is probably not strong enough to survive much more than one round against a concentrated attack of the party. Therefore we need to do all to not come into this situation.

Begin the combat by casting Fog cloud/Obscuring Mist, Darkness and Summon Swarm. You probably have more casters than the group has – take advantage of that. Now the „wingless“ dragon takes to the air drawing half a circle and attacks with BW from an unexpected side. The other two wait on reactions from within. One could initially blast as well but at least one should wait on reactions.

Reactions that are very likely: Removing the darkness, possibly with daylight. This still leaves the swarm and the fog. An area dispel magic could remove more effects, but also remove their own buff spells. Now the dragons take turns – one renews one of the above spells (you could add grease & web to the list), One flies over and breathes the third reacts on the reactions within.
The one reacting should either renew a spell (if nobody comes out) or add another effect from the list.
If one or two come out he will use his AoO (consider giving most of them Combat Reflexes). With his reach of 15‘ (with his bite attack) and his blindsight ability he should get off a big bunch of AoO before the players even come near enough to attack. Then consider doing one (and only one) full round attack and either dive down into the nearby pool or take off into the air to come back from the other side. While this one takes to the air and will be back the next round with his BW, the one who casts will make sure, that those that came out will be inside some kind of obscuring spell effect again and the one who just breathed will come down (silently!) and wait on a reaction...

You might consider giving the Bluff-Dragon the „Improved Feint“ feat (3.5). Now he could Feint with a Move-Action (to attack using his bite/claw) and instead breath at the party. Everyone falling for the feint (very likely) will be negated his Dex – I don’t know if he fails his Ref-Save automatically then or does it without dex which probably results in the same category...

Since you are sorcerers you will have enough spells to keep the party occupied with your low-level spells. They could decide to make a strong wind to get rid of the fog but the penalty for using ranged weapons is pretty harsh in strong wind.

The rest of them should take normal buff spells. The hideout could be supported by spells like invisibility (only one needs to take it and can cast it on the others). Minor Image might add to the confusion inside the darkness/web-cloud.

Now that would be my first approach...

Azal

 

[Darklone]

You don't lose your Dex bonus to Reflex saves if caught flat-footed or after a feint.

 

[Tilla the Hun (work)]

Sheesh - I'll avoid getting sidetracked into a discussion on an acid gas cloud breathed by a dragon or cast... Start another thread and I'll be happy to go there with you. As I said in one post or another, that's an 'iffy' ruling, and it's far more beneficial to the players to use your ruling on that.

I personally think that 3 adult green dragons (adult, not young adult, i.e. HUGE green) wouldn't even be working together, but if they did they would stick with normal stalking tactics as described in the MM and SRD - namely guerilla style tactics.

However, at the bottom of my last post I mentioned the brutally direct approach of all three coming in from opposite directions at the same time. Similar in nature to the latest ambuscade described, but much simpler. Each of the three has flyby attack and snatch. 300 foot moves across the party and three characters are snatched. Fling them to seperate them and hurt them. At this point, you should have at least one, if not 3, one on one attacks between a dragon and a party member on the dragons next round. A buffed dragon should be more than a match for any one party member ('cept maybe a 15th lvl wizard), and it'll take strategy on the part of the character to survive. I'd estimate this'd result in a 50/50 fight between a 13-15th lvl party and the three huge green dragons.

What is your party's APL??? I was assuming 13-15 but in doing some reading last night, three adult green dragons are going to rip that level of party a new one unless you treat them as disposable, which I had also assumed you weren't going to.

 

[Azalnubizar]

snatch doesn't work.

Adult = Huge, but snatch target must be three or more sizes smaller: Huge 1size smaller: larger, 2 sizes smaller: medium 3 sizes smaller: small.

It is very unlikely that the majority if the pcs are small.

You are right, that under normal circumstances, three adult green wouldn't work together. My proposed tactic was based on a short encounter.

If you take more time, take each individual dragon, make them hunt the party (guerilla tactics)... possibly even in competition to one another.
If it fits, you could also consider that an injured one is attacked by a fit-one, if they are in competition.

But IMO a guerilla kind of tactic might work in the beginning, but will not in the long run. The dragons missing enough healing-power will loose on the long run.

IMO the best (and fastest) tactic is the all-out-approach.

Azal

PS: And yes, feint wouldn't work (but it should IMO).

 

[buzzard]

OK let me clarify some of the restrictions I will be working under.

A) It is a formal event wherein the encounter is already set up, I cannot modify the playing field.
B) The players know about the dragons.
C) The dragons know about the players.
D) The players are APL about 13-14, and are pretty crafty in a tactical sense. They are also twinked out to an extreme.
E) I have a set spell list of the dragons. It is the same for each dragon, and it pretty well sucks.

1st Magic Missile, mage armor, shield, protection from good
2nd Blur, flaming sphere

Yes, I could have done better, but I have to work with what I have.

The party loves to use wall spells to manage the battle space. This will likely prevent fly by attacks. I am looking for tactics which can provide for ranged engagement without getting into melee with the twinked out bruisers.

Though I have been checking on the wall spells, the areas possible will be pretty limited. I should be able to breath weapon these people on a pretty regular basis. 12d6 is going to leave a mark no matter what. When I could this with dive bombing, I think I should be able to let them know it was a fight.

Though for any suggested tactics, don't assume the party will be in any way stupid. They are pretty well versed in all the tricks in the book.

buzzard

 

[IceBear]

You seem to be putting restrictions on the dragons that are counter to normal dragon-behaviour. I think the greens WOULD use hit and run tactics and flee at the first sign of trouble, only to seek revenge at a later time. They ARE dragons after all, not canon-fodder.

 

[Tilla the Hun (work)]

Right - you want up close and personal combat that counters usage of wall spells to control battle area. You want the restricted spell list you mention for each dragon. You don't want guerilla/fly-by attacks due to the wall usage, and you don't particularly want a lot of ranged attacking.

Sorry, but at this point you've stated the three green adult dragons are disposable.

BW = 1/d4 rnds. For 3 of them, you can count on 3 BW's every 4 rounds.

For a party of that level, those dragons won't last 5 rounds in all out melee fighting. Furthermore, they would know that if they had any knowledge of adventurers at all - a dragons main arsenal weaponry are it's BW and it's speed of flight. They would use flight tactics largely (alright, so snatch won't work, but your attack could still be a grapple attack - succeed and keep flying with flyby attack), and BW's from as much range and/or with fly by as possible. The first walls that go up to block 'em, they'd retreat from until the duration failed.

If you force your dragons into point blank melee with prepared adventurers of that level, they'll just get slaughtered with little damage (<50%) to the party. Sure the BW's will hurt, but you'll be lucky if 3 or more hit.

Now, if you had water around, surprise attacks out of and back into the water would help out melee attacks a lot - I'd give that around 60% damage to the party.

But seriously, examine your restrictions and see if you can't lift some to get a better fight.

 

[allenw]

snatch doesn't work.

Adult = Huge, but snatch target must be three or more sizes smaller: Huge 1size smaller: larger, 2 sizes smaller: medium 3 sizes smaller: small.

It is very unlikely that the majority if the pcs are small.

That was my first reaction as well. However, checking the SRD text for the feat, it looks to me like the "3 sizes smaller" restriction is only for the automatic bite or claw damage, though I admit it's debateable.

SNATCH [GENERAL]
Prerequisite: Size Huge or larger.

Benefits: The creature can choose to start a grapple when it hits with a claw or bite attack, as though it had the improved grab special attack. If the creature gets a hold on a creature three or more sizes smaller, it squeezes each round for automatic bite or claw damage. A snatched opponent held in the creature’s mouth is not allowed a Reflex save against the creature’s breath weapon, if it has one.

The creature can drop a creature it has snatched as a free action or use a standard action to fling it aside. A flung creature travels 1d6 x 10 feet, and takes 1d6 points of damage per 10 feet traveled. If the creature flings a snatched opponent while flying, the opponent takes this amount or falling damage, whichever is greater.

 

[Tilla the Hun (work)]

I knew there was a reason I thought that tactic would work Note the reference to improved grab? Imp Grab has a very similar effect built into it - that's all the 3 sizes are important about... Follow the Imp Grab rules regarding starting a grapple as a free action and sudddenly the whole thing makes more sense .


However, we haven't heard back about why these are disposable dragons or how to fit tactics into it...