How would you aducate this anti-dragon tactic?

[tomBitonti]

Ran into a similar situation with my players. I threw a 30HD chaos dragon at them
on the rim of a canyon. They were in a ravine that overlooked the edge, and the
dragon was attempting to sneak up on them by flying upwards along the canyon
wall. The party wizard threw a wall of force in the dragon's face.

The dragon wasn't able to see the spellcaster before the spell went off, so no spellcraft
check. I gave the dragon a spot check to make a reflex save for 1/2 damage, but
that was failed. I gave the dragon 20d6 for having over 200' of movement interrupted.

I figured 20d6 because the dragon had a speed of over 200' on impact. Most rules give
+1d6 per 10' of interrupted movement, for example, Awesome Blow, or Improved Bull Rush.

 

[Altamont Ravenard]

Blindsight vs. Blindsense: Damn. I was looking at 3.0 Dragons, which do have blindsight. 3.5 Dragons have Blindsense, which is described as:

Dragons can pinpoint creatures within a distance of 60 feet. Opponents the dragon can’t actually see still have total concealment against the dragon.

Ergo, the Dragon can't see the wall, since it's not a creature, but still should get a Spellcraft check if it sees the Wizard casting.

Sorry about the confusion.

AR

 

[Mordane76]

The other aspect of this is that most of the time, the only way to get this tactic to work is for the Wizard to have a Readied Action to do it.

This basically negates Spellcraft for the Dragon, etc. with respect to avoiding the wall. By the time the Dragon notices the spell casting, it is too late (rules-wise) and the wall is too big to avoid. The DM might allow the Dragon to get off a Quickened Dispel Magic (to counterspell) or Quickened Dimension Door (or some such) if he makes his Spellcraft roll, but most Dragons will not have that available. Most Dragons will have no options and crash into the wall, even if they make their Spellcraft to notice what the Wizard cast.

Actually, since the wizard must use a readied action, doesn't this provide the dragon with MORE options? As a readied action, the wizard voluntarily lowers his initiative to just before the dragon's action - that means the wall takes effect, AND then the dragon acts. For the speeds we're talking about, he's most likely already involved in a charge (and hence will still most likely hit the wall because he won't be able to slow himself down quickly enough), but he should definitely have options, as he should have actions just before he hits the wall.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Mostly, this tactic will just tick off the Dragon and he will Hover behind the Wall of Force from one half of the battlefield for the cover bonus (improved +8 cover if only his head sticks out) and use his breath weapon to devastate the party.

Oh, yeah. Absolutely. But it is a pretty stylish move to use against a dragon, isn't it?

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Actually, since the wizard must use a readied action, doesn't this provide the dragon with MORE options? As a readied action, the wizard voluntarily lowers his initiative to just before the dragon's action - that means the wall takes effect, AND then the dragon acts.

Not quite.

The readied action goes off as soon as the Dragon gets within 45', which will, presumably, be somewhere after the first speed increment but before the dragon attacks (so, if the dragon's charging, he's already committed at this point).

The Wizard casts his spell, and *then* his initiative count is set to just before the dragon's.

Similarly, if you readied an action to "Attack the first enemy that comes into my threatened area," you'd resolve your attack as soon as it entered your threatened area; you wouldn't "reverse time" and resolve your attack before the enemy moved.

 

[azmodean]

Actually, since the wizard must use a readied action, doesn't this provide the dragon with MORE options? As a readied action, the wizard voluntarily lowers his initiative to just before the dragon's action - that means the wall takes effect, AND then the dragon acts. For the speeds we're talking about, he's most likely already involved in a charge (and hence will still most likely hit the wall because he won't be able to slow himself down quickly enough), but he should definitely have options, as he should have actions just before he hits the wall.

But the trick is that the readied action occurs so soon before the action that triggers it that the target does not have time to change their action. For instance, if wizard1 sees wizard2 reading to counterspell wizard1's spell, wizard1 does not have the option of changing the spell or not casting it, they must follow through. In the wall of force example, the readied action takes place during the dragon's move, and the dragon does not have time to change its action, except possibly a reflex save of some sort.

Considering the discussion that has occurred, I don't think I'd give the dragon that save. I think I'd have it take about 1d6 per 20' of movement it was taking in the round. Also, my players (most of which have damage reduction) will be happy to hear that DR counts against falling damage.

 

[Derren]

Blindsight vs. Blindsense: Damn. I was looking at 3.0 Dragons, which do have blindsight. 3.5 Dragons have Blindsense, which is described as:



Ergo, the Dragon can't see the wall, since it's not a creature, but still should get a Spellcraft check if it sees the Wizard casting.

Sorry about the confusion.

AR

So, you can't detect walls with blindsense? Poor bats. Always bumping against walls they can't see....

 

[Andre]

I think I'd have it take about 1d6 per 20' of movement it was taking in the round.

Just for the record, 300' of movement equals 34 miles per hour. Your formula would have running into a wall at that speed do 15d6 of damage, or enough to splat an awful lot of commoners! The earlier posted suggestion of 6d6 seems more reasonable (IMO).

 

[Elephant]

If the dragon can detect the wall and alter course at 45 or even 30 feet, he'll be OK. Even with Poor maneuverability, he can still turn 45 degrees per move action, after moving a minimum of 5 feet. Given that the wall is 30x30, the dragon will definitely hit it if he notices it at a distance of 15 feet or less. If he decides to turn at 20 feet, he probably misses it (kind of borderline; I'd roll a Ref save to scrape by), and at any greater range, he avoids it easily.

Of course, this gets muddled a bit when you consider detecting the wall. If the dragon realizes it's there, does he have the ability to turn immediately? Does he have to wait for 5 feet before doing so? Ten feet? Next round? A lot depends on the DM's interpretation.

 

[smetzger]

I think the Dragon would notice/see the wall, per Blindsight.

from the SRD : "Blindsense (Ex): Dragons can pinpoint creatures within a distance of 60 feet. Opponents the dragon can’t actually see still have total concealment against the dragon"

A wall of force is not a creature therefore the dragon cannot see it.