How would YOU change Shadowdark?

[Bill Zebub]

I think it is a little much to suggest that Shadowdark just doesn't work right if you let people choose their stats and determine what they want to play. That is just demonstrably not true. For cons, I randomly rolled a bunch of pregens using shadowdarklings.net, and then let the players choose from among those pregens. it worked fine over the course of a 4 session con-campaign. i let the players in my home game roll Dragonbane style. it worked fine for the course of a campaign. Players don't suddenly forget how to "player skill" because they got to choose their class.

I agree. Did somebody suggest otherwise?

 

[Bill Zebub]

But it IS bad design to make a ttrpg "like D&D" and not only drop Vancian magic, but...(etc.)

I would argue such a thing would be "bad marketing" (or smart but dishonest marketing) and not "bad design".

But I don't recall Kelsey ever saying that Shadowdark is "like D&D".

 

[Theory of Games]

I would argue such a thing would be "bad marketing" (or smart but dishonest marketing) and not "bad design".

But I don't recall Kelsey ever saying that Shadowdark is "like D&D".

 

[Reynard]

I agree. Did somebody suggest otherwise?

This guy did:

And here's the thing: I think partly because of that, when we (shifting to first person to emphasize that this is my experience, not necessarily yours)...when we come across a challenge, we are more likely to think "off the character sheet" in finding solutions. Which, really, is a big part of the gameplay aesthetic Shadowdark aims for.

 

[Bill Zebub]

WTF does that even mean? Is that supposed to be a mode of communication?

 

[Bill Zebub]

This guy did:

I'm not sure how you map "shadowdark aims for a certain aesthetic, and this feature supports that aesthetic" to "Shadowdark doesn't work if you don't use that feature".

 

[TiQuinn]

Now, maybe that's not your style. Maybe you are perfectly happy with the (current) D&D experience, and you want to implement the same playstyle in a different system. If so, I sort of question why you would choose Shadowdark instead of just continuing to play D&D. (The artwork? That would make perfect sense, actually.). But, hey, you do you!

I question it because I see it not being a hill worth dying upon for any D&D adjacent system (OSR or otherwise).

I think what appeals to me with OSR games are the simplicity of the rules, not the randomness. (The torch timer is also very cool, and I like the drama the mechanic creates.)

But to me, saying "I want to play a Priest" or "I want to play a Wizard" versus "I want to see what I get based on my rolls" is the most basic, simple choice a group can make. It's the easiest house rule in a game that is supposed to be all about creating house rules, making the game your own, and playing free-form. What if two people want to play thieves? There's certainly no problem with it - there's no mandate that each person should play a particular role. And what's more, it's probably more inconsequential in Shadowdark whether one player rolls their character 3d6 in order versus another character choosing standard array than it would be in other games which are more ability score dependent (like 5e D&D).

So once you cast aside the personal preference part, what harm is really done? I just don't see it.

 

[Reynard]

I'm not sure how you map "shadowdark aims for a certain aesthetic, and this feature supports that aesthetic" to "Shadowdark doesn't work if you don't use that feature".

Maybe that is not what you meant, but what you wrote said that people that don't undertake the task of finding a good character out of 3d6 down the line also won't "think off the character sheet." I disagree with that notion.

 

[TiQuinn]

But I don't recall Kelsey ever saying that Shadowdark is "like D&D".

I've heard folks, particularly SlyFlourish, call it 5e adjacent or the "best introduction to D&D", but I don't know if Kelsey ever said this.

Honestly, I don't know if I find the comparison particularly enlightening or worthwhile. It's like saying any skill based, roll low percentile system is just Call of Cthulhu/Chaosium RPG.

 

[Reynard]

I question it because I see it not being a hill worth dying upon for any D&D adjacent system (OSR or otherwise).

I think what appeals to me with OSR games are the simplicity of the rules, not the randomness. (The torch timer is also very cool, and I like the drama the mechanic creates.)

But to me, saying "I want to play a Priest" or "I want to play a Wizard" versus "I want to see what I get based on my rolls" is the most basic, simple choice a group can make. It's the easiest house rule in a game that is supposed to be all about creating house rules, making the game your own, and playing free-form. What if two people want to play thieves? There's certainly no problem with it - there's no mandate that each person should play a particular role. And what's more, it's probably more inconsequential in Shadowdark whether one player rolls their character 3d6 in order versus another character choosing standard array than it would be in other games which are more ability score dependent (like 5e D&D).

So once you cast aside the personal preference part, what harm is really done? I just don't see it.

I am baffled that someone thinks that if you want to pick your class in Shadowdark, you should be playing 5E instead.