How would YOU change Shadowdark?

[Bill Zebub]

But to me, saying "I want to play a Priest" or "I want to play a Wizard" versus "I want to see what I get based on my rolls" is the most basic, simple choice a group can make. It's the easiest house rule in a game that is supposed to be all about creating house rules, making the game your own, and playing free-form. What if two people want to play thieves? There's certainly no problem with it - there's no mandate that each person should play a particular role. And what's more, it's probably more inconsequential in Shadowdark whether one player rolls their character 3d6 in order versus another character choosing standard array than it would be in other games which are more ability score dependent (like 5e D&D).

So once you cast aside the personal preference part, what harm is really done? I just don't see it.

I wasn't one arguing that 'harm' was done. I was explaining why I think the randomness is a fun part of Shadowdark and even a thoughtful (not an aribtrary) part of the overall design.

And I also wasn't saying that if you won't roll random stats you shouldn't play Shadowdark. I was saying that if doing so is part of an overall desire to just replicate the D&D experience, why leave it and choose Shadowdark? And it was an honest question! Maybe there are great reasons, and I'd love to hear them.

 

[Bill Zebub]

I am baffled that someone thinks that if you want to pick your class in Shadowdark, you should be playing 5E instead.

Please read 2nd paragraph of above post.

It seems like you keep taking my sentences and extrapolating meaning that isn't there.

 

[TiQuinn]

I am baffled that someone thinks that if you want to pick your class in Shadowdark, you should be playing 5E instead.

Yeah, I would highly question that person's intent if they were to say that to me at table.

 

[Reynard]

Please read 2nd paragraph of above post.

It seems like you keep taking my sentences and extrapolating meaning that isn't there.

I think you are not being as careful with your responses as you think you are. the person you were responding to said they thought the standard array was okay. You extrapolated that into saying random character generation was fundamental to SD design (it isn't) and strongly suggested wanting it meant the person really wanted a "standard D&D experience." You are extrapolating a lot from a singular, low level modification desire.

Now, again, maybe you did not mean that, but if multiple people are responding to you as if that is what you were saying, it suggests that the fault isn't with us intentionally misreading you.

 

[wicked cool]

You are making it more complicated than it needs to be. this is not a game designed with granular rules and explanations for every circumstance. It is the GM's job to answer questions like "Can I backstab." All the GM has to do is look at the circumstances in the moment and make a ruling.

Not really. I’m running shadowdark currently and backstab has come up a few times

Let me change my example
Party of 6 vs say a troll

I let the thief take an action to hide and following turn they backstab on their turn.

This is literally being argued on the discord forums. Do they get just the one backstab? Does the halfling get 2 if they don’t use invisibility

I just want clarification in the rules

Same goes with a vial of poison . How does that work

Auto success vs auto fail. If the rogue has time they auto pass find secret doors and traps?

Backgrounds. Herbalist. What does that mean. Does the herbalist auto know the berrys are poisonous. Can they tell the queens wine is poisoned?

There’s in my opinion a lot of discretion left to the gm and I’d love to see how Kelsey runs these

Now I’m running my campaign in a Ravenloft type setting where torches are needed all the time but are torches needed outside the dungeon in your worlds. A hex crawl involves traveling and encounters outside. Do you stop the torch timer then?

 

[Fenris-77]

Are the goblins aware of the thief? If so, he cannot backstab them. That's it. It really is that simple.

Actually that's not how it works. The exact language in the rules says 'unaware of your attack' not unaware of you. That a pretty big difference. You can walk up to someone in a ballroom and 'backstab' them in the face if they weren't aware of the attack. It's not linked specifically to a stealth status like it is in 5E.

 

[TiQuinn]

And I also wasn't saying that if you won't roll random stats you shouldn't play Shadowdark. I was saying that if doing so is part of an overall desire to just replicate the D&D experience, why leave it and choose Shadowdark? And it was an honest question! Maybe there are great reasons, and I'd love to hear them.

Simpler rules!

Some familiar trappings such as the classes, spells and monsters!

Not wanting to go back and buy B/X rules, and parse that language as written in 1970-whatever/1980!

I am absolutely looking for an OSR game that ticks off my checkboxes, and it's specifically because I don't want it to be 5e. 5e is wonderful for playing D&D as a epic, heroic style game. If that's the type of campaign I want to run, then I'm not looking at Shadowdark, or Old School Essentials, or Cairn, etc, I'm sticking with 5e.

But what if I want a simpler game that still sits in that fantasy space, featuring combat, magic, puzzle solving, traps, and more resource management that puts the dungeon exploration front and center? I particularly want a game where the class choices are less about building your character from scratch and gaining abilities, and more about discovering magic items that give you the abilities. What if I want a little bit of both? What if I want to make that initial choice of character class, but then see what becomes of my character afterwards? There's a big difference between saying "I want to play a Fighter" and "I want to play a Fighter who will become an Eldritch Knight at 3rd level, and I'll take these feats because they'll work really well with this ability that I get at 9th level".

 

[Reynard]

Actually that's not how it works. The exact language in the rules says 'unaware of your attack' not unaware of you. That a pretty big difference. You can walk up to someone in a ballroom and 'backstab' them in the face if they weren't aware of the attack. It's not linked specifically to a stealth status like it is in 5E.

Good point. Fair enough. But it still isn't complicated: it is a question for a ruling in the context of the moment.

 

[Bill Zebub]

I think you are not being as careful with your responses as you think you are.

Maybe, but it's also possible you aren't reading as carefully as you could.

For example...

the person you were responding to said they thought the standard array was okay. you extrapolated that into saying random character generation was fundamental to SD design (it isn't)

No, I said it worked in synergy with other design elements, such as a de-emphasis on ability scores. The "fundamental" design intent is that players overcome challenges without necessarily looking at their character sheets, and all those design elements support that goal.

and strongly suggested wanting it emant the person reallyw anted a "standard D&D experience." You are extrapolating a lot from a singular, low level modification desire.

Also false, but an example of reading meaning into my words.

Now, again, maybe you did not mean that, but if multiple people are responding to you as if that is what you were saying, it suggests that the fault isn't with us intentionally misreading you.

Maybe. But I do not think it's intentional.

 

[TiQuinn]

No, I said it worked in synergy with other design elements, such as a de-emphasis on ability scores. The "fundamental" design intent is that players overcome challenges without necessarily looking at their character sheets, and all those design elements support that goal.

But that de-emphasis works both ways. If it's de-emphasized, why does it matter at all?