How would you defend your subterranean kingdom?

[Forrester]

One thing you MUST keep in mind, if you are going to be realistic, is that the goblins would be aware of how low-level spells could completely spin them.

They will have to set up their lair so that one or two guards getting Charm Person or Suggestion cast on them won't mess everything up.

They will have to make sure that a high-level rogue with Invisibility and Gaseous Form won't be able to waltz in unnoticed. (Glyphs of Warding are great for this.)

And so on, and so forth. The plans presented so far in this thread are excellent (hell, I'm going to be using some of them in my campaign!), but many are based on real-world (i.e., no-magic) thinking.

Keep in mind those low-level spells. Certainly, a tribe of goblins that big would know about their existence, and probably be able to cast many of them themselves. They need to be guarded against, big time.

 

[mmadsen]

Re: ...

As goblin king, i'd have a few scenarios to defend against:

1. Defend the tribe against those sneaky "heroes" seeking to plunder our plunder. (Small party, 6-8 humans)
2. Defend the tribe against other goblin tribes wanting to invade our goblin tunnles. (300-1000 goblins)
3. Evacuate the children when our cave complex is being invaded. Have situational awareness of any intrusion to know when to evacuate.
4. Fight to the death when we cannot evacuate.

I tend to think your primary threat, as Goblin King, comes from a large band of humans -- either an angry mob of raided villagers or the local noble's knights and men-at-arms retaliating on behalf of the villagers. Caught in the open, Goblins, even Wolfriders, could fall to Men on Horses. Defending their underground lair though, the Goblins should easily rebuff any attackers. A siege could get ugly though.

If the mass attack fails, the local noble sends in the heroes -- effectively commando units with unconventional combat capabilities. Perhaps the heroes can work in conjunction with a larger conventional force surrounding the mountain?

Are other Goblins a threat? Well, is there much for another Goblin King to plunder? While I have no trouble imagining Goblin Tribes at war, would they bother attacking a fortified position?

I certainly see evacuation as a top priority. In fact, I'm not sure cowardly Goblins would even consider fighting to the death.

 

[trix]

Re: Re: ...

I tend to think your primary threat, as Goblin King, comes from a large band of humans -- either an angry mob of raided villagers or the local noble's knights and men-at-arms retaliating on behalf of the villagers. Caught in the open, Goblins, even Wolfriders, could fall to Men on Horses. Defending their underground lair though, the Goblins should easily rebuff any attackers. A siege could get ugly though.

If the mass attack fails, the local noble sends in the heroes -- effectively commando units with unconventional combat capabilities. Perhaps the heroes can work in conjunction with a larger conventional force surrounding the mountain?

Are other Goblins a threat? Well, is there much for another Goblin King to plunder? While I have no trouble imaging Goblin Tribes at war, would they bother attacking a fortified position?

I certainly see evacuation as a top priority. In fact, I'm not sure cowardly Goblins would even consider fighting to the death.

Well... i used the other 'goblin' tribes to signify the worst case scenario. A standard human army would have a problem with height and darkness, so at best, they'll be equal to an invading goblin tribe. At worst, they'll be too high in the tunnels and suffer too badly to seriosly take the tunnels.

The best the humans could do is to block off and vent all the tunnel entrances. Entering is a deathtrap.

So the goblin 'play' is to collapse the tunnels and dig the pre-collapsed vent intakes (which arnt obviously guarded, since from the surface you have no clue as to where they are.) This fixes the air problem.

They would then organise and dig the alternative exits that were precollapsed, bringing the raiding party to the surface. Their scouts can do 2 things: Determine that they can drive off the siege party, or determine that they must evacuate.

More than likely, the assault force would fight with the weakest guarded cave entrance that wasnt collapsed. If a resounding victory is achieved, they enter into the tunnels immediately after battle, there is no waiting around on the surface, straight into cover. The battle-tired would take over as defenders, and the defenders would be the next assault force, which would go after the next siege group, etc.

Its reasonable to expect that a large well tunnelled mountain could be held indefinately considering that:

a) Matching 1000 goblins against 1000 humans results in the following:

1000 humans split over 6 entrances (180 each) if they intend to smoke the complex. So, 600 goblins leave through a precollapsed entrance, to squash 160 humans at some cave entrace. Immediately, they enter their complex again having gained 1 guarded entrance to the world. This continues until the human party must withdraw or loose their only defending force.

IE: Its silly to loose your entire attacking force, because its also the city defense. So, if they have 1000 soldiers, and loose 600 of them. Then they have to ensure that when defending their city, they have, say... 2:1 odds, so the remaining 400 soldiers can fend off 800 goblins. Obviously, the goblins would withdraw according to the same equation related to odds. With say a 4:1 odds defending humans from their tunnels, they could loose 800 goblins to have 200 goblins defend 800 humans. A bit of operations research later, and well, the equations of war come into play.

Anyway, the key to driving out the goblins from the complex is that you'd need a little less than (ENTRANCES*GOBLIN SOLDIERS*some factor based on distance layout between entrances, reaction time of invading force and knowledge of human movements by goblins)=REQUIRED # OF HUMAN SOLDIERS... to successfully siege a goblin complex... it could be calculated based on effieciencies.

As you can see (based on my speculation, i've given no proof), its a bugger to siege a well planned goblin complex.

Things change when magic is involved.

Consider ethereal form. Walk into their foodstores, and set the stuff alight. Throw some smokers around, light some fires, etc, and thats it: Game Over.

Consider clarvoyance. With a wizard with good perception, he should be able to map out a few entrances.

Good communication + teleport can increase reaction time, requiring fewer troops. Clarvoyance could be used at each tunnel entrance to check the build up/movement of troops near the entrance. (Meaning that there is going to be a raid [call other troops], or a raid is going to occur somewhere else [send troops somewhere else or prepare for an invasion from this quater]).

It would be tough on the goblin shamen side. One would need to block magical scrying within the complex and scry the outside.
Communication within the complex should be easy, using nonmagical effects. Teleportation and ethereal passage would need to be shut down. Aggressive magical spells arnt going to have major effects (fireball can only kill a few goblins... but there is no line of sight/tunnels are all curved never straight(or at least rises and lowers in a straight line, etc)).

Blocking the abstract spells (teleport/scry/ethereal form/etc) are the ones that are most concerning since they play with the dynamics of conventional warfare.

A worst case conventional invasion by goblins would have goblins (same size, knowledgable of tactics, possibly able to get spys and sabotures in before the invasion) would have a 2:1 defensive odds.

A worst case conventional invasion by humans would have at least a 3:1 defensive odds.

Throw in magic, and a couple of well placed fires would make things even. If the goblin shamen are able to block the abstract stuff, well, then the caves can only be taken by force.

-Tim

 

[Reaver]

Reverse Dungeon rocked. Figured the goblin portion would be over quickly, well it took 3 sessions before we decided to move on to play the higher powered monsters. of course we had wiped out the first 3 parties sent at us and forced the support town to be abandoned.

"everyone poop in the box"

"dump the box in their well"



Reaver

 

[trix]

cool thread.

Thinking about this is quite intresting. I've pretty much got a good idea for an ideal deathtrap.

In my settings proposal orcs do not exist (explicitly stated). (Too cliche/corny at the moment, goblins have better typical character than the stereotypical orc. (my opinion).)

Goblins are Cool.

Thinking about it... kobalds should be bannished as well. Bland, no character.

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Re: Re:... the fight to the death 'plan' #4 comes into play when you're fighting against wizards who have clarvoyance, ethereal form, teleport, etc. Once one is backed into a corner, it becomes a total war. In some situations, rather let your opponent escape.

The human siege force could suround and siege, leaving one obvious escape route. The goblins exit their cave complex, and they are then rout'ed by cavalry out of the appropriate lands. A land war ensues, instead of a tunnel siege, where the goblins have the advantage.

---

Something to think about: Are their neighbouring goblin clans? Runners could request help from adjacent clans. This puts a reasonable timelimit on the invaders. Its also a reasonable that a goblin king would have some sort of alliance with adjacent clans, to protect and invade?

Maybe thats too appropriate? Could the stereotypical dwarven complex do any better than goblins? Probably not. They both have similar structures, with dwarves being more of the stocky fighter types, whereas the goblins are more the roguish types.

-Tim

 

[SHARK]

Greetings!

Well, if confronted with such a force of entrenched Goblins, why would an invading human force be ever so discouraged? It is a relatively simple matter of bringing a legion or two up, and quickly setting to work on a fortified enclosure that would entirely encircle whatever mountain or range of hills that the Goblins have made their homes. With this done, the following efforts can be achieved:

(1) From the walls of the fortified enclosure, there would be towers, manned by archers working in shifts, night and day, day and night. Nearby, there would be several sections of Peltasts on alert status, backed up by a contingent of cavalry. In addition, kennels of ferocious, armoured war-dogs can be brought up for the operations to come.

(2) The commanding general of the siege forces could then order special assault rams and mantlets brought up, so that teams of hard men could begin digging from one end of the cavern-complex to another, while being heavily covered by archers, fire-throwers, and assault infantry, with war-dogs.

(3) System by system, the assault crews would go to work, not only digging and burning the Goblins out at every step of the way, but the besieging forces could work on ramps, towers, enclosures, and gated fortifications to be built quickly along the way, steadily denying the Goblins more and more of their home territory.

(4) The commanding General should then continue to dig out and slaughter every Goblin, with fire, axe, spear, or war-dog, and continue to claw them to death and crush them with the gauntlet of overwhelming human power and determination.

(5) At the conclusion of operations, any such surviving Goblins should then be skinned alive, rolled in salt, and publicly crucified along the sides of the embankments of a brand new road that is paved and built along the forest leading through the remains of the shattered Goblin home. Each and every Goblin that isn't killed in the fighting, whether male or female, young or old, should be gathered thusly, and so killed as an example of the might and power of the human kingdom, and the fate that awaits all who resist.

The next Goblin tribe will be sure to stay far away from the borders of this human kingdom. A few Goblins are sure to have escaped, and spread news of the total and savage disaster that befell the Goblin kingdom that sought to resist the glory and might of the human kingdom. And, if by some chance a cocky Goblin tribe moves into the area, the human kingdom can gear up and do it all over again. It doesn't matter in the long run how many humans die in the process. The absolute goal is that whenever the Goblins appear, they will be inexorably and ruthlessly exterminated. This will be done with such ferocity and zeal that there will never be any exception, or any doubt about any future outcomes of such operations. It is by such methods that peoples learn the price of resistance, and the benefit of kneeling in submission...

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

 

[Hatchling Dragon]

Apparently I'm the only person that views Goblins as lazy and (relatively speeking) stupid. Most of the, admittedly great, ideas presented here are, at least in my view, far too complicated or effort-intensive to be used by Goblins.

My solution to defending this Cavern Kingdom of yours is to use Kobolds. They're very industrious and it even mentions in the MM that thier favorite 'hobby' is building traps.

On the other hand, it'd make sense to me if the Goblins in question had taken over the Kobolds in some way. Perhaps an enterance that only the Goblins knew about (and used to such good effect), and that the PC's might be able to find out about if they work hard enough and follow the clues. This assumes of course that you want to have any form of 'easy way out' for them.

Hatchling Dragon

 

[mmadsen]

It is a relatively simple matter of bringing a legion or two up, and quickly setting to work on a fortified enclosure that would entirely encircle whatever mountain or range of hills that the Goblins have made their homes.

It looks like my comrade in arms, SHARK, has been reading Caesar's Legion again!

Against an empire that can deploy 10,000 heavy infantry with siege engineers and auxiliaries, I think our Goblins are, literally, dog meat.

In fact, something I've been thinking but haven't brought up is that one key to success for the Goblin King is to realize he's a parasite, not a conqueror. As long as he doesn't call enough attention to himself to rouse a determined army, he can keep robbing wayfarers and farms. Once the King's Men -- or worse, the Emperor's Legions -- arrive, it's time to take that secret exit the Men haven't found yet.

From the walls of the fortified enclosure, there would be towers, manned by archers working in shifts, night and day, day and night. Nearby, there would be several sections of Peltasts on alert status, backed up by a contingent of cavalry.

Even a medieval levy could besiege the Goblin King's mountain stronghold easily enough, but I assume (a) the Goblins can hold out indefinitely, and (b) they can escape below ground. Maybe those assumptions are off, but Goblins generally live underground; I don't think they need to come up, and I think they can tunnel far, far away to escape.

In addition, kennels of ferocious, armoured war-dogs can be brought up for the operations to come.

Ah, I forgot dogs! I tend to think of dogs and Goblins as natural enemies. Naturally, dogs would be great for finding hidden entrances into the underground stronghold, and they'd be great for taking apart Goblins in underground search-and-destroy missions, but I have to think the Goblins would have some nasty anti-dog tricks up their sleeves. Poisoned meat? Pepper spray? Caltrops?

The commanding general of the siege forces could then order special assault rams and mantlets brought up, so that teams of hard men could begin digging from one end of the cavern-complex to another, while being heavily covered by archers, fire-throwers, and assault infantry, with war-dogs.

I wonder how long it would take to dig through the side of a mountain. If the Goblins can't effective sally forth or rain down missiles, I guess it's pretty safe work. Time consuming though.

I don't think it would be easy to assault underground "gatehouses" along a narrow corridor, even with skilled engineers.

At the conclusion of operations, any such surviving Goblins should then be skinned alive, rolled in salt, and publicly crucified along the sides of the embankments of a brand new road that is paved and built along the forest leading through the remains of the shattered Goblin home.

Oh, I don't have a point; I just have to quote that bit on skinning Goblins alive and rolling them in salt. Good stuff.

 

[mmadsen]

Apparently I'm the only person that views Goblins as lazy and (relatively speeking) stupid. Most of the, admittedly great, ideas presented here are, at least in my view, far too complicated or effort-intensive to be used by Goblins.

Actually, Hatchling Dragon, I more or less agree with you. I see Goblins as clever, but not industrious. Many of these suggestions sound like they belong in the Hall of the Dwarf King. When I think of Goblins, I think of petty bandits who'll carve low-ceilinged corridors with murder holes above and to the sides -- and who'll cover the ground with caltrops dipped in "filth" (nice euphemism, that). I don't think of engineers setting up massive steel doors, magical traps, etc.

 

[Hatchling Dragon]

Heh, you could alter the Title of your thread (did you know you can do that even now?) to something along the lines of "Dirty Tricks for Goblins", or Kobold Kingom Defense help please.

All of the ideas presented here, and I do mean all of them, are exactally why I will never (willingly) take a character into one of thier 'nests' unless I am certain we're going to be suprising them. Well, mabye if we're sure they haven't had a few years to make thier home a true death-trap.

Hatchling Dragon