How would you divvy up the material in the core books?

[mmadsen]

My own take is that the Player's Handbook could easily be turned into a sort of Rules Cyclopedia by including a few monsters -- e.g., goblin scouts & wolfriders, hobgoblin soldiers, skeletons & zombies, and most mundane animals -- and some of the rules from the DM's Guide, while moving the bulk of the spells and magic items into a new, fourth book, the Tome of Magic, or whatever.

 

[Roger]

Hmmm. Something I don't like about the current system is that it reinforces this idea of a "player caste" and a "DM caste" and I'm not sure that's really healthy for most gaming groups or the hobby as a whole.

So I don't think I'd go with that sort of division. But I'm not sure what division I would go with.


Cheers,
Roger

 

[Glyfair]

Stat blocks for familiars, horses, animal companions, and summoned monsters should be in the Player's Handbook. You should not need an MM to play a core character and use his powers.

Indeed, at least one version of the PHB had a bonus section with familiar stats. Was it the second printing of the 3E PHB?

 

[GreatLemur]

I kind of like the scheme that some of Green Ronin's OGL games have been using: One big, lavish hardcover that has everything you need to play or run the game, plus a smaller, cheaper softcover book that reproduces all the basic rules stuff from the main book that a player would need in a low-fluff, easily-referenceable format. It seems like a great way to make getting started in a game reasonably affordable.

Not sure how well this could work for D&D, though. I mean, there's just such a freaking huge volume of information in the core books. I definitely believe it could be safely pared down quite a bit, but this ain't a thread about how we'd redesign the game itself.

 

[imbiginjapan]

The vast majority of RPGs simply publish a single book that has enough to run the game. The multiple D&D books that are ABSOLUTELY REQUIRED to use the system has always seemed like a money grab to me. Despite the claim that players technically only need the PHB to play, I find there is a lot of info in the DMG (as previously pointed out by some other posters) that is of real use to players.
I feel that the best system is to provide a smaller assortment of spells and monsters within a single book, and provide supplements that offer more if people desire it. This way a reasonably creative GM, or a group of casual players, can get involved with a minimal investment. The group can either extend the rules with user created content, or a casual group may never even get through the material offered in the original sourcebook. Only those groups who want more need invest the money in additional books.

 

[mmadsen]

The vast majority of RPGs simply publish a single book that has enough to run the game.

Agreed -- except that most games don't seem nearly as playable as D&D, because it's not clear just what to do with all those rules. (Mearls made this point a few years back on Ryan Dancey's GamingReport forum.)

The multiple D&D books that are ABSOLUTELY REQUIRED to use the system has always seemed like a money grab to me.

If that's the case, and it does iin fact make them more money, more power to 'em -- but I suspect it doesn't really make them more money, since it's such a big leap to get into the game. Once people are in, we know they'll happily buy book after book after book, but buying and reading $100 in books just to get started -- when you're not sure what you're getting into -- is a big leap.

I feel that the best system is to provide a smaller assortment of spells and monsters within a single book, and provide supplements that offer more if people desire it. This way a reasonably creative GM, or a group of casual players, can get involved with a minimal investment.

Agreed.

So what, specifically, should go into such a single book?

 

[Tonguez]

The SRD adding XP and character creation info could be fit into one book.
Change the magic system and just give a few sample monsters

Really the SRD is all you need to play

 

[danzig138]

I'd keep things the way there are now, except as noted, summonables would have mini-stat blocks in the PHB, and also available in spiffy pritniable pdfs on thew web.

GMs can create the rest of them, or they can show up in modules.

I'm busy being broke and raising a 13 year old, 12 year old, and 11-month old, and maintaining a stable relationship with the SO while trying to stay in some kind of shape so I don't fall over dead at too early of an age, and keeping the house clean with the aforementioned children running around.

I can't afford modules.

I sure as heck don't have the time to make up a whole bunch of new stuff. 20 years ago, sure. Inbetween the other recreational activities like drinking and fighting, I had plenty of time to make things up.

I'll keep my plethora of lists and descriptions thank you, since it's the difference between spending time designing a new magic item or creature or teaching my baby to play tug of war or dance to cool music.

reinforces this idea of a "player caste" and a "DM caste" and I'm not sure that's really healthy for most gaming groups or the hobby as a whole.

I don't know, it's been divided up into Player and DM for a couple years now, and it doesn't seem to have killed the hobby, or hurt any of my groups. If people don't like this particualr division of labor, there are quite a few games I read about on RPG.net that dispense with the division.

And GMs should have extra creative time to come up with a way to spread the work more evenly around the table since they've got lists and descriptions of a whole lotta magic items and monsters.

 

[Geron Raveneye]

I'd still break it down by level.

• Basic D&D: Play for levels 1-4, including classes, spells 0-2, monsters CR up to 5, Potions, wands and scrolls only, All the combat rules, dungeoneering rules (doors, walls, traps)
• Extended D&D: Play for levels 5-12, including classes, prestige classes, spells 3-6, monsters CR 6-13, rest of the magic items (except artifacts), wilderness and city rules, on-going campaigning advice
• High-Level D&D: Play for levels 13-20, including classes, prc, spells 7-9, monsters 14-20, artifacts, planar rules, more advice
• Epic D&D: Play for levels 21-40, include whatever's left (note the 40, D&D really does need limits.
• Deities & Demigoes: Play for immortality

What he said.

 

[imbiginjapan]

Agreed -- except that most games don't seem nearly as playable as D&D, because it's not clear just what to do with all those rules. (Mearls made this point a few years back on Ryan Dancey's GamingReport forum.)

I don't really agree here, as I think D&D can be pretty daunting out of the gate. It seems more playable because people around here are used to it. For example I'd argue that a truly "playable" game shouldn't require its users to reference charts in three separate books to find a particular result.

If that's the case, and it does iin fact make them more money, more power to 'em -- but I suspect it doesn't really make them more money, since it's such a big leap to get into the game. Once people are in, we know they'll happily buy book after book after book, but buying and reading $100 in books just to get started -- when you're not sure what you're getting into -- is a big leap.

I don't really think it's a leap, considering that for many people D&D is the only RPG that they are aware of. If it were such a big financial leap D&D wouldn't be selling such vast quantities in comparison to every other RPG out there. Now, one could say, "well obviously the three book model is the correct given the sales figures" but I think it's more likely that people are willing to spend a 100 dollars on a ubiquitous certainty than 40 dollars on a gamble (whether the perception of a particular RPG being a gamble is correct or not, I can't comment).

So what, specifically, should go into such a single book?

I think the BRP Call of Cthulhu book is close to the best example. In fact the monster list could probably be trimmed and it would still be fine. It offers enough flavor for just about anyone to get a clear idea of the setting, and my 5.5 edition even includes an actual Lovecraft story. For D&D, where the rules are much heavier and the setting is quasi-generic, it obviously would be difficult to add that degree of background and keep the volume relatively slim. That is why I agree with the folks suggesting a level-based modular design. A new player does not need access to seventh level spells and CR 15 monsters.
As an example I got a ton of mileage out of the old Red Box D&D set (levels 1-3!) when I was just getting into role-playing.