How would you fix the bodak/save-or-die

[heirodule]

I asked this in the poll, but maybe it should be its own thread

One idea would be to bring back the "chance it recalls its past life" idea, and let a bard distract it by singing songs of long ago to it.

All 'save or die' effects could be nerfed like level drain was. You get thrown into a catatonic state and have 1d6 rounds before you croak. Or you are thrown catatonic and loose 1d4 con per round. Fixable with a DC 30 heal check or a lesser restoration?

I think heal checks should be more useful...

 

[Ilium]

I like the idea of allowing Heal checks to help against save or die spells. In my game most save-or-die spells instead reduce you to negative hit points and dying status, so your friends have a chance to save you. With the bodak I like your "unconscious and losing CON" option. That way even if death is prevented you will likely be in tough shape for a while. Or you could drop to negative 1d6 HP, but all the damage is considered Vile, so it is a drag to heal.

 

[wayne62682]

Funny answer: Don't consider it metagaming to not look at one!

Serious answer: I would probably change it from instant death to immediatly dropping to -1 (possibly with a fair bit of Con drain?), so at least the rest of the party has a chance to save you and/or for you to stabilize. However I dislike any "save or die" creature and feel they serve no purpose other than to screw the PCs, so my views are quite biased.

 

[Jack of Shadows]

Well,

I can't speak to the Bodak specifically but I have never liked the "unfun" nature of save or die spells. I do however like the threat that they encourage. So in my own campaigns I made this simple change, if you fail a save against a death spell you're droppped to negative hitpoints equal to the level of the spell. For example, Bobarian fails against a Finger of Death spell (which I think is 5th level) then we would immediately drop to -5 hit points. Bobarian is in serious trouble and there is a significant chance he will in fact die, if his friends can't assist him quickly or he fails to stabalize on his own.

It may seem that this takes the teeth out of the Death spells but in my experience it has actually made them MORE fearsome. Previously if you failed against a death effect you were gone and the party just battled on. Now not only are you out of the fight but the party has to assign further resources in the midst of battle. As a GM I'll take mortal terror above "game over, insert another $.25" any time.

Jack

 

[cincinnati reds]

Well,

I can't speak to the Bodak specifically but I have never liked the "unfun" nature of save or die spells. I do however like the threat that they encourage. So in my own campaigns I made this simple change, if you fail a save against a death spell you're droppped to negative hitpoints equal to the level of the spell. For example, Bobarian fails against a Finger of Death spell (which I think is 5th level) then we would immediately drop to -5 hit points. Bobarian is in serious trouble and there is a significant chance he will in fact die, if his friends can't assist him quickly or he fails to stabalize on his own.

It may seem that this takes the teeth out of the Death spells but in my experience it has actually made them MORE fearsome. Previously if you failed against a death effect you were gone and the party just battled on. Now not only are you out of the fight but the party has to assign further resources in the midst of battle. As a GM I'll take mortal terror above "game over, insert another $.25" any time.

Jack

This is what I do as well. Nothing sucks more than being taken out in the 1st round of combat by a Phantasmal Killer.

 

[Keith Robinson]

Bodaks have played a major role in two campaigns I've been in - one as a DM, the other as a player.

In the game I Dm'd, the party encountered a bodak in an old mansion. One of the PCs ran into the room, cast their eye over it and immediately kealed over dead, having failed his save. The bodak took out a second character before it was destroyed. After some quick research, the PC's discovered what happens to those killed by bodaks and tied their fallen comrades bodies to stakes, so that when they awoke the following day, they would sizzle agonisingly under the sun! It was particularly memonrable for two PC's standing in the hall and saying, if anything comes out of that room, we're going to shoot it with our cross bows and jump out of the window. So, the cleric retreats out of the room, gets hit by a couple of bolts and then watches two of his comrades leap out of a first floor window (which was fine for the monk, but not so good for the druid...)

In a completely catatrophic encounter with Bodaks, I was playing a wizard and we encountered one in an ancient dwarf citadel, now filled with undead. To say it was disastrous is to seriously underplay it. The party got split up, so rather than encounter the bodak at full strength, we ended up going in 1's and 2's. The first one in looked up, gasped and died. The second hang around until my character and a sorcerer arrived. The sorcerer was just in front of me, ran in the room, looked up, gasped, and died. So, myself and this other character (I think he was a fighter) took it on, as best we could, while waiting for the heavily armored cleric to catch up. I can't remember how many saves I had to make in that fight - over 10, with my Fort save being the worse - while slowly picking it off with my spells. The fighter soon caught its gaze one time too many and also died, leaving me alone. I made save after save, until the cleric finally arrived and we killed it.

So we retreat to recoup and find more comrades and return with more-or-less a whole new party, straight back to the room where we'd defeated the bodak - now to find more! Once again, two more comrades fell and my wizard continued to defy the odds and survive. We managed to kill a couple, but fled, returning later for a third time. After having finally researched our enemy, we returned and finally defeated them (I don't think we lost anyone third time around, though could be wrong - the number of character deaths started to get a little fuzzy around this point).

My wizard was the only survivor of those who had initially set foot in that room. I really don't know how he survived, as he had the worst Fort save of everyone (even the fighter who only needed a 1 or 2 on his save died!). Not an encounter quickly forgotton. And you know what - it was a lot of fun

Edit: meant to add, so keep it as it is!

 

[Shemeska]

I asked this in the poll, but maybe it should be its own thread

One idea would be to bring back the "chance it recalls its past life" idea, and let a bard distract it by singing songs of long ago to it.

All 'save or die' effects could be nerfed like level drain was. You get thrown into a catatonic state and have 1d6 rounds before you croak. Or you are thrown catatonic and loose 1d4 con per round. Fixable with a DC 30 heal check or a lesser restoration?

I think heal checks should be more useful...

A lot of monsters in 3.5 were stripped of abilities/traits/SLAs that weren't directly relevant to combat, and were more flavor things: see the removal of the random traits for Slaadi, the removal of the flashbacks trait for Bodaks, Erinyes being turned from diabolic corruptors to close air support.

All of those more flavorful things should be returned.

But with the bodak specifically, I don't think it was broken before, and even now if their used in context they're great critters.

I had a rather memorable encounter in my 1st campaign where the PCs walked right past a bunch of githyanki corpses and messed with a warded object. They heard something moving around, things standing up, and turned around, all of them looking into the eyes of a dozen or so Bodaks. You could hear the OOC cursing and face smacking that they'd never checked (the githyanki had been slaughtered in a pretty vile way by a minor archfiend, hence the bodak transition).

 

[an_idol_mind]

I think there are two easy ways to work around the save or die thing.

First, you can use action points from Eberron/Unearthed Arcana. That way, you don't have to nerf a thing. You just need to let the players know what the consequences of a failed save are.

Alternatively, it's pretty easy to just rule that save or die effects drop a character immediately to -1 hit point. That gives them a chance to stabilize or to be healed by their companions.

 

[Vrecknidj]

I can't speak to the Bodak specifically but I have never liked the "unfun" nature of save or die spells. I do however like the threat that they encourage. So in my own campaigns I made this simple change, if you fail a save against a death spell you're droppped to negative hitpoints equal to the level of the spell.

Wow. Why didn't I think of that? Thanks.

Dave

 

[maggot]

Two other options: Gaze attack causes negative levels, or gaze attack causes negative energy damage (like inflict critical wounds).